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Thread: Fender HotRod Deville ML Schematic

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    Fender HotRod Deville ML Schematic

    Here is another schematic that I just could not find.
    There are a lot of schematics for the Hot Rod Deville, but I could not find any schematics for the Fender Hot Rod Deville ML (Michael Landau)
    Anyone have this one ?

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    Have you called Fender? They have always been good to me about giving me whatever schematics they have.

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    I have seen it, I'll dig the hard drive

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    Here they are
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Who does not know and knows that he does not know - teach him Confucius)
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    I thank you all very much. Absolutely great site, with kind help.
    Exactly what I was looking for.


    Interesting, I see they withhold a lot of component values on the schematic.
    Probably to prevent people from upgrading a Stock Deville to an ML.

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    Last edited by zimbodel; 11-16-2019 at 12:55 AM.

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Looks to me like they didn't add the values of all the deleted parts in the V2b circuit, the more drive, which isn't there. As I see it, the difficulty would be reverting the ML back to the stock. And if you wanted to do that, you could simply get the readily available schematic for the older version. No secret schemes here.

    Where do you see unlisted part values, other than in circuits not stuffed?

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    Ok I see whats going on there. Thank you very much for pointing it out.
    I interpreted the jargon Lingo of "stuff" to mean value.

    With "Do Not Stuff", they mean "Do Not Place" sheesh! ! and Wxx are jumpers.
    I hate this kind of Jargon english. Clearly there are more relevant words.

    I have no problem and wont revert back to the original Deville circuit.
    Do you own a Deville ??
    If you ever had a Deville you would agree it is one of the nicest Fender amps made, but that second drive channel is a disaster and "more drive" is even more of a disaster, totally unusable.

    The Devilles came with a few blatant errors (IMO) such as some of the versions trying to drive an inductive load of the reverb tank with a TL072. That is just not a good idea. You need an opamp that can at least supply the current to drive an inductive load properly and designed for reactive loads, or at least add a constant current source to the supply line of the opamp so it can react with sufficient inrush current as one of the many options. Just a TL072 is a misapplication in my opinion. The reverb with TL0s were either anemic or garbage harsh. They then moved to a better opamp and things are a bit better, but there still isnt a current source or an inductive driver. I replaced the TL0s on mine with better drivers years ago and it improved immensely.
    I think Fender must have realized the problem and moved to BA4560, which I am not sure is entirely going to solve the problem, but it is a very very good op-amp and surely way better than the TL0 for this purpose.

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    Last edited by zimbodel; 11-16-2019 at 07:15 AM.

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Clearly there are more relevant words.
    Well, they are commonly used terms in the industry. And I bet now that you know them, you won't forget. W for wire. Some draftsmen use J for jumper. Oh yes, the Brits call them links. Usually clear from the context. They have to call things something. R and C for resistor and cap are intuitive. OP amps? SOme are drawn as IC101, IC102 etc. Others are drawn as U101, U102, etc. DIodes are usually drawn as D, but there are still a good portion drawn as CR, for Crystal Rectifier. In my lifetime I saw 1000 change from M to k, now M means meg. But you still see old Gibson or other ancient schematics and you see resistors like 100M, 47M, and what not. Those are not megs, those are todays 100k and 47k. Caps came in mf and mmf, then changed to uf and uuf. For microfarads and micro-microfarads. uuf? Now we call them picofarads. I now use picofarads and it feels normal to me finally, but I will never internalize nanofarads. SOme drawers use VR for a pot rather than P, or even just call it another resistor. K for relay? I have no idea why. But all of them are conventions, and hopefully it only takes once to become familiar with them.

    If you want to buy a replacement circuit board for an amp, many companies only sell them stuffed. But some sell the bare board if you prefer, and you can stuff it yourself.

    I do not own a DeVille, but I was an authorized Fender warranty shop for 30 years. I have certainly repaired my share of them. I agree that they sound good on clean, and buy pedals for overdrive. I thing the gain channels sound awful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    K for relay? I have no idea why.
    From the German for contact (Kontakt) perhaps?

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    I am owner of an electronics manufacturing company and I never heard stuffed...
    To me it is a really slang lowbrow lingo to replace the standard "place" with.
    There is no need for people to reinvent the wheel with a nonsensical equivalent.
    It has been the standard for decades to call it "placement" or to "place" a component.

    Technically and grammatically you stuff something which is hollow and you place something onto something which is a plane.
    Completely absurd imo.

    But lingo and fads picks up easy from generation to generation and you are right that this is the latest flavor even though, technically, historically and grammatically completely incorrect.

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    Should we argue about "tube" instead of "valve"? I have been in electronics for 65 years, and I never heard the term "place" until we got to automated board machines. Pick and place machines. No one "placed" parts on hand wired circuits. I have seen some drawings that use the verb "fit". As in "not fitted in 50w model", or "fitted only in reverb models".. I think MArshall perhaps. Sounds British to my ear. Is that lowbrow and absurd too?

    If two lines on a schematic cross, one convention draws that with a bump in one line to show it goes over the crossing line without a junction. Other conventions draw crossing lines as plain lines, and show connection by adding a big dot at the joint. Neither way is "incorrect".

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    Well, I "stuff" a turkey. I do not "place" it.
    A turkey is hollow that is why it gets stuffed.
    Pcbs are not hollow.
    I guess some people can "place" their turkey as much as they want this season and then go to work and "stuff" the pcb's.

    To me it certainly gives the impression of lowbrow.

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    Last edited by zimbodel; 11-23-2019 at 07:58 AM.

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    OK, you win. I am lowbrow, and use nonsensical terminology. I am glad we could settle that.

    Now please explain to me why we drive on the parkway and park on the driveway.

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    Parkway is a driveway that goes through open spaces synonymous to a park.
    Therefore parkway.
    There is more than one meaning to the term "park"

    I have never accused you of being lowbrow.
    You are putting words in my mouth.

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Clearly the irony is lost, so have a lovely day...

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    Quote Originally Posted by zimbodel View Post
    Parkway is a driveway that goes through open spaces synonymous to a park.
    Therefore parkway.
    There is more than one meaning to the term "park"

    I have never accused you of being lowbrow.
    You are putting words in my mouth.
    If you ride the ass backwards you will see where you've been and what you should have done said or not argued about. Pointless drivel arguing semantics.

    Nosaj

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    It all started with Michael Landau ... ...
    and via technically and grammatically we come to turkey reverb.

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    Since it came up in a different thread, here is an example of 'stuffed', from one of North Americas largest manufacturers of music equipment.
    The term is standard nomenclature for my time in electronics, but that only goes back to the 80's.
    To me, the word 'placed' used here would be ambiguous as to whether the board is complete (soldered) yet. I guess 'populated' would also work, but as far as I know, 'stuffed' and 'unstuffed' are the accepted standard.



    Click image for larger version. 

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    I have also seen "installed" and "not installed" in use.

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    Likewise.

    Quote Originally Posted by nosaj View Post
    If you ride the ass backwards you will see where you've been and what you should have done said or not argued about. Pointless drivel arguing semantics.

    Nosaj

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    That about sums it up perfectly.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by vintagekiki View Post
    It all started with Michael Landau ... ...
    and via technically and grammatically we come to turkey reverb.

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    I agree except that you say that "place" is ambiguous. The schematic creates the routed pcb design, and gerbers and BOM.
    The schematic is therefore the overview of the construction for reference.
    The "Dont Place" will therefore be in the BOM as it is in the component value or descriptor field.
    Meaning that if Dont Place is in the the BOM, since it is in the Schematic, then it by definition will NOT be soldered, so I dont agree with your argument there about ambiguity..
    Fender is not the only electronics company and not the most influential by far and pretty minute globally..
    I sincerely doubt "stuffed" is the standard.
    I think it is a local flavor, and in my opinion totally misleading with negative conectation.

    You stuff something hollow and by definition of the word stuffed, you do it reasonably carelessly.
    Doesnt make any sense using the term if it has those connectations for something as critical as a pcb.

    Definition:
    Stuffed used as a verb in relation to an object.

    verb (used with object)
    to fill (a receptacle), especially by packing the contents closely together; cram full.
    to fill (an aperture, cavity, etc.) by forcing something into it.
    to fill or line with some kind of material as a padding or packing.
    to fill or cram (oneself, one's stomach, etc.) with food.
    to fill (meat, vegetables, etc.) with seasoned bread crumbs or other savory matter.
    to fill the preserved skin of (a dead animal) with material, retaining its natural form and appearance for display.
    to put fraudulent votes into (a ballot box).
    to thrust or cram (something) into a receptacle, cavity, or the like.
    to pack tightly in a confined place; crowd together.
    to crowd (a vehicle, room, etc.) with persons.
    to clutter or fill (the mind) with facts, details, etc.
    (in leather manufacturing) to treat (a skin, hide, etc.) with a composition of tallow and other ingredients.
    to stop up or plug; block or choke (usually followed by up).

    Clearly the term stuffed is completely used out of context here.

    Technically you can only stuff something hollow.
    https://www.dictionary.com/browse/stuffed

    I will leave it at that.

    Thank all who helped me obtain the schematic.
    It is appreciated.




    Quote Originally Posted by g1 View Post
    Since it came up in a different thread, here is an example of 'stuffed', from one of North Americas largest manufacturers of music equipment.
    The term is standard nomenclature for my time in electronics, but that only goes back to the 80's.
    To me, the word 'placed' used here would be ambiguous as to whether the board is complete (soldered) yet. I guess 'populated' would also work, but as far as I know, 'stuffed' and 'unstuffed' are the accepted standard.



    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	56036

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    Last edited by zimbodel; 11-24-2019 at 06:10 AM.

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    You stuff something that is empty, not necessarily hollow,but really...

    From your own reference:
    to fill (a receptacle), especially by packing the contents closely together; cram full.
    to fill (an aperture, cavity, etc.) by forcing something into it.
    An aperture is a hole or cavity or gap. Now an empty board is full of holes (And please don't argue that something cannot be full of holes since they are empty spaces) And those holes are to be filled with component leads. Hence stuffed.

    The bottom line is that we know what it means, you did not but now do know, so everyone knows now. You can kick a dead horse all you like, but it won't make him alive.

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    Misunderstanding of Grammar and Semantics always leads to conflict.

    An SMD component is placed it cannot be stuffed as there are no holes as per your definition and requirement for "stuffed" in your previopus post.


    So according to your definition:
    A throughole pcb is "stuffed"
    while
    An SMD board with obviously no through-holes is not stuffed ?

    You cannot have it both ways right ?

    So using your definition, "Stuffed" fails miraculously on SMD boards as the board has no cavities and since you use the through-holes as the prime reason for "stuffing", you are not allowed to "stuff" components on an SMD pcb board or if it is an SMD component.

    So what do you call placing an SMD component ? "Stuff" ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    You stuff something that is empty, not necessarily hollow,but really...


    An aperture is a hole or cavity or gap. Now an empty board is full of holes (And please don't argue that something cannot be full of holes since they are empty spaces) And those holes are to be filled with component leads. Hence stuffed.

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Oh please...

    If I go to the store and find an empty parking place, I "fill" it with my car. But there is no hole, only painted lines on the ground...just like your SMD board. The space is just a concept, an imaginary space. Yet it is still understood as a space. The space on the SMD board is there to fill with the component.

    So I apologize, as I should have said space instead of hole. That confused you. The empty space where the component belongs can either be through hole or SMD. MY doctor said he had a hole in his schedule for next thursday at 3PM. Should I assume he meant the schedule book had an actual hole on the paper page? Or did he mean an open slot in the events of that day? Oh dear, "Slot". Perhaps that is better said as "Available appointment period".

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    If you find an open space which is by its by definition "a compass of a volume"

    Then sure, it is correct to fill the volume.
    In this case it is also correct to "stuff" as the parking space is constrained by 3 sides and since up or on the sidewalk is not possible, it forms a cavity. So you can stuff the cavity between the adjacent two cars and the road surface
    .
    However, again there are bad connectations using stuffed although in this case it is a correct application as it is a cavity.
    It is not the preferred word unless you recklessly drive into the parking knowing that your car almost doesnt fit and it also includes the case that you will press and squeeze yourself into the space with damage.

    But your example is correct.

    In this case I definitely dont place the car, unless a boomed towtruck like they have in europe places the car there like a pick and place machine.

    Clearly the towtruck places the car from the air, and dont stuff the car back into its parking space.

    The SAME happens with a pick&place machine that places a component on a PCB. It is placed not stuffed.

    So by your own example you see the difference between place and Stuff and that components are therefore placed.

    I never heard of a PICK & STUFF machine did you ?

    But, you can stuff your car all day long.
    Thats fine with me.



    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    Oh please...

    If I go to the store and find an empty parking place, I "fill" it with my car. But there is no hole, only painted lines on the ground...just like your SMD board. The space is just a concept, an imaginary space. Yet it is still understood as a space. The space on the SMD board is there to fill with the component.

    So I apologize, as I should have said space instead of hole. That confused you. The empty space where the component belongs can either be through hole or SMD. MY doctor said he had a hole in his schedule for next thursday at 3PM. Should I assume he meant the schedule book had an actual hole on the paper page? Or did he mean an open slot in the events of that day? Oh dear, "Slot". Perhaps that is better said as "Available appointment period".

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    Last edited by zimbodel; 11-24-2019 at 09:32 AM.

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    I apologize again, you don't understand analogy OR irony.

    If you just want to rationalize how your preferred word is the only possible reasonable word to use, well there is no way to debate that. So give yourself some points.

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    No offense and no irony.

    Have you ever heard of a "pick & Stuff" machine ? and why not.
    Just asking.
    To be consistent, do you call it a "Pick & Stuff" machine?

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    Last edited by zimbodel; 11-24-2019 at 09:44 AM.

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    This thread is boring as a dog's ass.

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    I'll always prefer to "stuff it in".

    "Place" just isn't filthy enough.

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    He just earned an ignore button, so I am through with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoulFetish View Post
    This thread is boring as a dog's ass.
    Hey! I resembled that remark!

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    "In fact when I run into problems working on electronic circuirts, there are so many times that when I finally track it down, the source of the problem is located between my soldering iron and my seat." SoulFetish

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck H View Post
    Hey! I resembled that remark!
    If you ever wanna strap those sunnies on your ass again, we're there for you man.

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