Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: 4x12 speakers question

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Location
    FRANCE
    Posts
    113
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 14/0
    Given: 8/0
    Rep Power
    0

    4x12 speakers question

    Hi,
    i bought 2 celestion vintage 30 a while back and i did not like the tone, in a 2x12 closed cab i had made myself. Too much mid's, i sold them out. And after, a customer came to try an amplifier with his guitar and his 4x12 Mesa, equiped with 4 celestion vintage 30. The tone was awesome, i had never heard my amps like that. A growl i don't find now in hi gain with my gear. I don't own a 4x12 though...
    So why the 4x12 mesa is soooo good ? Are they special speakers ?
    By the way, this cab is very expensive, but it's worth the price i think...
    And some marchall 4x12 are for 300 € with celestion speakers inside, but which ones?

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  2. #2
    Supporting Member mozz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    NEPA
    Posts
    863
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 210/1
    Given: 149/0
    Rep Power
    5
    Maybe your 2x12 wasn't sized right for those speakers.

    1 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  3. #3
    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    La Jolla CA, Hanalei, Kauai
    Posts
    3,148
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 386/1
    Given: 44/1
    Rep Power
    16
    Aren’t Mesa cabs “over sized”? The internal volume and porting of the box makes a big difference. Also.. speakers have to break in, an older Speaker will sound better.... AND.. is the cab the same impedance? Imhe... grind with speakers only happens when and if the speakers are breaking up. That’s why the popularity of green backs. They are low wattage speakers that break up at lower volumes. Most modern 4x12 cabs don’t break up until you reach Lear Jet levels of SPL...

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  4. #4
    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Posts
    6,710
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 1,509/1
    Given: 1,118/1
    Rep Power
    17
    Are you sure the speakers were in phase in the cabinet you built? If they were out of phase you would be lacking lots of low frequency.

    1 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    “Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.”

  5. #5
    Supporting Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,953
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 2,173/1
    Given: 1,240/2
    Rep Power
    7
    Closed (non-vented) cabinets considerably increase the bass resonant frequency of the speakers. While sound will be strong at the resonance, sound level rapidly drops below the resonance.
    E.g., a 4x12 Marshall cab shifts the resonance of 75Hz Celestions to 120Hz. A smaller closed cab will result in an even higher resonant frequency and may cause a low mid emphasis but weak bass sound.

    2 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Last edited by Helmholtz; 02-25-2020 at 11:39 PM.
    - Own Opinions Only -

  6. #6
    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    pacific north west
    Posts
    16,052
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 2,854/4
    Given: 3,355/0
    Rep Power
    31
    And another thing.

    The old Vintage 30's made in England don't sound quite like the New ones made in China. I like the Vintage 30 in both incarnations and have used both in a few different cabinets. The British version has a slightly smoother upper mid, a little less focused there and in the bottom end resonance and not as aggressive sounding. Most players prefer it. My tastes lean toward the Asian version with more crack and aggression and more pronounced, meaty hump in the LF. So it's possible that the speakers in either cabinet were more different than two like model speakers would normally be from one another.

    Also, the weight of the cabinet and it's acoustic resonance can have a profound impact on the tone. I had a pair of a particular speaker in a 2x12 MDF cab that sounded rather good, with balance and plenty of LF. I built a different 2x12 cab for those speakers to match up with an amp I was building. I used the same interior volume, but I used solid pine for the cabinet walls and 7/16" plywood for the baffle and back. A good bit lighter than the MDF cabinet. Absolutely no bottom end from that cabinet. I have to assume there is some sympathetic acoustic vibration sapping the lower frequencies.?.

    Anyway. I do have a pair of Brit Vintage 30's in a heavy 2x12 MDF cab and it has adequate low end. Not thundering, but it doesn't leave me wanting either.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    "In fact when I run into problems working on electronic circuirts, there are so many times that when I finally track it down, the source of the problem is located between my soldering iron and my seat." SoulFetish

    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "Being born on third base and thinking that you must have hit a triple is pure delusion!" Steve A

  7. #7
    Supporting Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,953
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 2,173/1
    Given: 1,240/2
    Rep Power
    7
    I do have a pair of Brit Vintage 30's in a heavy 2x12 MDF cab and it has adequate low end.
    Closed or semi-open? This makes a lot of difference. My explanation above was for closed cabs only.

    In comparison to a closed cab an open cab may significantly extend bass response. Also cab type strongly influences the impedance curve at low frequencies and thus changes the interaction with the amp.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    - Own Opinions Only -

  8. #8
    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    pacific north west
    Posts
    16,052
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 2,854/4
    Given: 3,355/0
    Rep Power
    31
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmholtz View Post
    Closed or semi-open? This makes a lot of difference. My explanation above was for closed cabs only.

    In comparison to a closed cab an open cab may significantly extend bass response. Also cab type strongly influences the impedance curve at low frequencies and thus changes the interaction with the amp.
    All cabinets referred to in my post are closed back.

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    "In fact when I run into problems working on electronic circuirts, there are so many times that when I finally track it down, the source of the problem is located between my soldering iron and my seat." SoulFetish

    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "Being born on third base and thinking that you must have hit a triple is pure delusion!" Steve A

  9. #9
    Old Timer tedmich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Sonoma CA
    Posts
    3,436
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 311/2
    Given: 106/3
    Rep Power
    15
    did the Mesa Cab have its price tag on it? They ALWAYS sound 10x better when you can see what they charge

    I work in Petaluma, home of Mesa, and there are zero bargains ever even here.

    Their Thiele (sealed) Cab sounds great to me, but their 412 are high priced "Meh" IMHO.

    2 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  10. #10
    Supporting Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,953
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 2,173/1
    Given: 1,240/2
    Rep Power
    7
    Their Thiele (sealed) Cab sounds great to me
    From what I've seen Mesa Thiele cabs are not sealed but vented bass reflex designs, probably tuned for the speaker using its Thiele-Small parameters.
    That helps a lot with bass response.

    1 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Last edited by Helmholtz; 02-27-2020 at 07:08 PM.
    - Own Opinions Only -

  11. #11
    Old Timer tedmich's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Sonoma CA
    Posts
    3,436
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 311/2
    Given: 106/3
    Rep Power
    15
    Yah, Mesa Thiele is a bass reflex!

    Digging a little deeper it seems the original Mesa Thiele is actually a design from D.B. Keele Jr. at Electrovoice that uses the mighty EVM12L in a so-called TL806 alignment, described here:
    https://robrobinette.com/images/Guit...ders_plans.pdf

    anyway the numbers check out, Vb ~ 1.3 ft3
    it should do 60Hz quite well!

    Newer Mesa Thiele's use the Celestion C90, that only handles 90W and costs $145 in a nice cabinet... for $500!

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Getting my first 4x12 and I have a question
    By smac4th in forum Cabinetry
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 02-18-2015, 09:13 PM
  2. Laney 4x12 speakers?
    By lowell in forum Guitar Amps
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 02-05-2015, 06:27 AM
  3. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-20-2013, 06:19 PM
  4. Celestion speakers for 2x12 or 4x12
    By cram242 in forum Guitar Amps
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-30-2007, 06:31 PM
  5. Best sound from a 4x12 the way speakers are loaded?
    By Slobrain in forum Guitar Amps
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 03-27-2007, 05:26 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •