Keyboard amp for Voice and Fiddle?

[Rigormortis]

We are from a very small place where there are few other musicians. We're going to need all our own amplification.

[Joe Bee]

OK. I don't want to spend a lot of money until I know what I'm doing. So I'm looking at any and all vocal PA amps that come up on eBay. For example, here's a big one--a SHURE. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=110205653329

I don't mind just getting just a head, because I've got some PA speakers for a home theater that I could use for starters. But I don't want to buy junk.

I have no idea what it is that you dug out there, but to put it mildly, it looks like it is best enjoyed by someone with experience on what he is doing. While buying used sounds like a great idea, I would really go with something more recent. In contrast to guitar amplification, which has not changed much since the 50's, there is still a lot of development in PA's, so don't buy anything as old as that.

To give you an idea what to look for:
http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-EON15-G2-Pow...QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Nady-FWA-12-...QQcmdZViewItem
these might be out of your price range, but if you keep an eye open, I am sure you will eventually find something.
One is atually a stage monitor, but I am sure that for a small venue, you could just turn it around and have it beam at the audience :-)


If you just buy a head you will sooner or later kick your self and buy something like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/YAMAHA-PA-SPEAKE...QQcmdZViewItem
Home theater and HiFi speakers are an entirely different animal from proper PA speakers, and even if you don't blow them at the first gig, you will not have a lot of fun with them.
Again I am not much of a pro in this field, but I will give you one reason why it most likely wont work: The efficiency rating of home speakers tends to be 90dB/W/m, whereas PAs are 10x more efficient at 100dB/W/m. This means you need 10x more power from the amplifier, so you are looking at an average power of, say, 10W vs. 100W. now if you hit a loud note, it wold not be unreasonable to peak at 200W with the PA speakers, so that would be 2000W (!!!) from the home theater speakers. Even if your amplifier can supply that kind of power, your speakers won't survive it for long.

[Enzo]

That Shure is 40 years old. We used stuff like that when I was on the road. Individual on/off switches for reverb at each chammel. Of course the reverb sounded like an old screen door spring.. For similar money, you can find something half as old.

A mixer that includes a power amp for the speakers is called a "powered mixer." Some are laid out like a mixer - flat like a desk top. others are in the same shape and layout as a guitar amp head. We call those "box mixers" around here, for their box-like shape. Not calling one or the other better, just pointing out the varieties. You would need your own speakers with that.

There are some that are complete systems - mixer/poweramp and speakers. Something like fender Passport is an example.

There are also now a lot of powered speakers, and some of those have a small basic mixer inside - two to four inputs. I think most everyone makes one now, but JBL's Eon was one of the first if not the first of this type.

A powered speaker is a speaker cabinet that has a power amp inside it. You can plug a mic directly into it, or supply other signals.

[Rigormortis]

Thanks. I'm learning a lot. It's hard to get the picture when there's no similar system nearby for me to look at and try out.

I was looking for a nice little PA amp separate from speakers, with controls for EQ and reverb, because if we have several microphones, it would be nice to have one controller.

But now I'm thinking for our group, a powered speaker might be best.

OK. Maybe we'd better start from scratch. If you were looking for a small performance system for vocals and perhaps to amplify a fiddle, what would you select?

Would something like this be appropriate? http://cgi.ebay.com/PAIR-TECHNICAL-P...QQcmdZViewItem

I have no idea of appropriate wattage for vocals, since all my amp experience has been with guitar amps.

I looked at the Fender Passport, and it looks like a similar product. I had ruled out those things, just because they didn't seem like something a band could use.

[Joe Bee]

Would something like this be appropriate? http://cgi.ebay.com/PAIR-TECHNICAL-P...QQcmdZViewItem

Please do yourself a favour and dont buy trash like that. I understand you dont want to spend big bucks, but if you buy that thing, you may aswell flush your money down the toilet. The 2000W rating is a plain lie, there is no way a 1.4" voice coil with a 40oz magnet can burn that kind of power. The 92dB sensitivity is marginal at best, crank this thing just a tiny bit and you will get horrible power compression or worse, have the thing burst in flames.

Especially since you don't have a lot of in depth knowledge about PAs, I would suggest you to stick with some reputable company like Yamaha, JBL, Electro Voice etc. Buy used, buy something smaller with a 10" woofer and 100W (that should be plenty for your current situation) and you will have something that you can still use in 10 years if you are playing in a smaller venue or so.

[Enzo]

And while buying used can save you money, you do have to have some idea what you are looking for. You might consider looking at one of the catalog houses like Musicians Friend. These basic PA systems come in various brands, and are not really very expensive even new. Plus, new ones come with a warranty. Ebay? Nothing there to back you up.

[Rigormortis]

I guess when I see those packages like the Fender Passport, I'm thinking they are Mickey Mouse units designed for highschool gym dances and such. The Technical Pro units looked like the same kind of thing.

I don't know what size range I'm looking for. Right now we are all using smallish combo amps, with the largest guitar amp being a Fender Bassman turned down low and my amp being a Traynor YCV20WR, also turned down low.

So, for starters, I need to know what wattage is appropriate.

I'll take another look at what Yamaha has. Any other brands and units to recommend? I'd like to find something under $400.

[Rigormortis]

OK. How about this powered speaker by JBL?

http://www.music123.com/JBL-Eon15P-1...52796.Music123

or this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-Eon-10-Power...QQcmdZViewItem

Wouldn't I still need some kind of cab or mixer? Or can I go straight in with a mic and my little mic preamp?

[Paleo Pete]

OK I'll try to give you an idea what will be needed. First off, for a PA handling vocals, the more wattage you have the more headroom you have, and the less chance of feedback and distortion.

That said, for what you describe, a 100-150 watt PA amp should handle it with no problems, you're not talking a heavy metal band in a football stadium...

Powered speakers or not, yes you will need a mixer. The mixer gives you the ability to adjust (mix) the volume levels and tone of each mic, so you can blend everything well. A powered mixer has a built in amp to send the signal to the speakers, a non-powered mixer sends a line signal to an amp, which then powers the speakers.

You'll also find that usually the PA speakers are out in front of the band, it's not easy to hear yourself sing, so stage monitors might be necessary, but you won't know until you try your setup onstage. It is possible to put the PA speakers further back and pointed inward a bit so you can hear, but mic placement will be important to cut down feedback.

From experience, I would go with more PA than I think I need, it never fails if you get something that will just handle the job, in 6 months you're shopping for more channels, bigger power amp or whatever. Still, something like the Passpoert or Peavey's equivalent should work, Kustom makes some smaller 4 channel PA's that are pretty good, but I would stay away from Behringer, everything I've seen so far has been cheap plastic look and feel, I don't think it would hold up to much road abuse. and it WILL get dropped on the way into a hall one night, count on it.

I don't have a problem with used equipment, as long as I can see and hear it before I shell out any money. If it has Peavey's logo on it, I know it's well built, especially their PA stuff, Peavey has been #1 in PA gear for at least 20 years. I've used lots of Peavey gear, and have 2 Peavey guitar amps now, one of them I've used in clubs without a backup for 15 years. Their head style PA amp/mixer units are very good, I've used the 4, 6 and 8 channel rigs and never had any problems with them, provided everything is set up right. But I would be hesitant to buy used equipment off ebay or other online avenues such as craigslist, simply because you don't absolutely KNOW, for sure, it works as advertised before buying.

I haven't tried the powered speakers, so I don't know how well they work, but you still need a mixer with one.

Monitors? Well, for my situation with full, loud band, monitors are mandatory, can't hear your vocals at all without them. That means a mixer with a monitor out, which most have, a separate amp to amplify the monitor signal, (100 watts or so works usually) and at least two monitor speakers pointed back toward the band. With your situation you might not need monitors, I've played a two piece acoustic show without them but it was difficult hearing myself at times, but usually no big problem. 90% of the time we could both hear ourselves well enough monitors weren't an issue. Probably won't be an issue in your case either, but I wanted you to be aware of the potential need for them.

For what you need, somehting like the Passport linked above, the Peavey equivalent, or this Squier 4 channel should be enough. 80 watts might be a bit on the light side, but for just vocals if you don't intend to get really loud, it should handle it. For the above mentioned acoustic duo we used a 100 watt 4 channel Peavey PA amp and it had power to spare for mid sized clubs.

Shop around, see what you can find, and if you see something online post a link here, myself and some of the other guys here may have used it at one time and might be able to offer opinions as to quality and usability for your purposes.

[Rigormortis]

Thanks for these good replies. I'm going into some unfamiliar territory with few local resources. None of us in the group really know much about vocal amplification, but we're learning.

We played last night at an open mic in a restaurant/pub that has its own PA--two Mackie 10" powered speakers on stands and a mixer by some other brand. I think we had it turned up too high because I saw the people flinch a little when I started singing. Not good! But I thought the system was a little large unless you had people dancing and talking loud.

I can see why you would want a stage monitor for vocals.

[Enzo]

I might not be so hot on the Squire, that is Fender's throw away line, and they are pretty cheap. They don't let us even fix them under warranty - "replace only."

The JBL Eons work well and sound good to me. I have repaired them, but overall I'd say they are reliable. To use one for yourself, you can plug a mic right into it. But to run more than one voice through it, you'd need a mixer. Nothing fancy, but a mixer nonetheless. SOme Eons and other similar products have a small mixer as part of it - three or four inputs on the thing. So a folk duo could use it with two mics perhaps. But that would be minimal for a group. ANd three or four voices would need a small mixer to feed it.

Funny looking PAs like th Passport sound a lot better than they look. Even the Eon puts out a lot more and better sounding sound that it looks like it would. Now everyone makes something like the Eon - molded plastic speaker with amp inside.

And what Paleo said, I'd always feel confident with a Peavey system on the road. Nothing taken away from other brands, but PV works.

[Enzo]

If the house flinches when you sing, it COULD be too loud, or maybe...

Just kidding.

SOmetimes tone matters more than volume. A shrill piercing sound will annoy the ear at a lot lower volume than a smooth even sound. And some speakers tend to beam their sound, so if someone is sitting right inth e middle of that beam, it is LOUD, but a few feet to either side and it is fine. That is why they sell beam blockers to guitar players.

[Paleo Pete]

Enzo

Thanks for the feedback on the Squier, I know the guitars quite well, some are decent, some are trash, but don't know a thing about the Squier line of PA stuff, didn't even know it existed till I started looking up something that would work for this thread. That's my Squier strat in my avatar, I found one of the good ones. I do know the Passport sounds pretty good, I've used one before but only once or twice. Peavey makes one just like it but I've only seen it not heard it. Ad for it Here. I would go Peavey every time, but other people sometimes look to spend a bit less, so I also looked for lower priced alternatives.

Nothing taken away from other brands, but PV works.

That's why they've ruled the live sound business for 30 years. I've rarely played through a PA that was not a Peavey. I've seen them dropped, rained on, carried miles and miles over rough roads, beer dumped in and on them, speakers knocked offstage, you name it and the only time I've seen a Peavey PA fail is when it's wired wrong and blows a fuse or something similar. Some dummy sends a speaker signal to an input, that kind of thing...user stupidity...I'm finding Soundcraft and Mackie are gaining good reputations these days, at least for good mixers, but it's only been very recently.

[Rigormortis]

Based on our experience the other night, and on the advice of the guy who sets up their sound system, we decided to start with our own monitor that we could use in practice. He recommended the Mackie SRM150. My only problem with this is that sooner or later, I'm saying we're going to need our own real PA, and the money could go toward that.

What do you guys think?

The band likes the Fender Passport or the Peavy Audio Performer package also, partly because we need more mics.

I'm leaning more toward getting our own ElectroVoice SXA100, or JBL PRX512M, or Peavy PR10, or Mackie SRM. But if we get these, I'm going to have to pay most of it myself, because I'm the only one who thinks we might need something that big.

[Rigormortis]

OK. I ordered the little Mackie SRM150 for rehearsal and a stage monitor. We'll see where we go from here.