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Thread: 5F11

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    Senior Hollow State Tech Bruce / Mission Amps's Avatar
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    5F11

    Do you think there would be any interest in a tweed 5F11 Vibrolux kit?

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    Bruce

    Mission Amps
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    Supporting Member tubeswell's Avatar
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    yep

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    Yes, damnit. I want amps with trem. Why the hell does everybody need to "improve" designs by removing a good bias trem? Fender has it ass-backwards, leaving the opto-coupler trem in the Deluxe Reverb reissue but eliminating the kick-ass bias trem from the Princeton "Recording" amp.

    Bear

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    Would they be a stock version or the improved version like the chassis picture you showed in another post? I like the idea of a larger power transformer. I built a few when the Weber chassis was available and used a somewhat larger transformer to good effect.

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    Senior Hollow State Tech Bruce / Mission Amps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Martin View Post
    Would they be a stock version or the improved version like the chassis picture you showed in another post? I like the idea of a larger power transformer. I built a few when the Weber chassis was available and used a somewhat larger transformer to good effect.
    Not stock, I punched up all the PT holes in those last chassis to fit a Deluxe Reverb/Tweed Deluxe sized PT and I use either the 8K tweed Deluxe OT or a reissue 6K6 Deluxe Reverb OT in the amps.
    All my 5F11 cabinets are made with a 12" speaker baffle instead of a 10".
    So with a good ceramic or Alnico speaker, they rip when built this way.
    As far as the rest of the 5F11 chassis go, I was going to strip the ink off and make them all into little 20 watt, 6V6 tweed Bassman type amps with V,T,M,B and the bigger iron. Kinda like a ... Bassboy!

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    Mission Amps
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    How about a tweed tremolux kit...

    The 5f11 is a great amp, but I think the 5g9 tremolux needs some attention. Get at it Bruce!

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    Senior Hollow State Tech Bruce / Mission Amps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by topbrent View Post
    The 5f11 is a great amp, but I think the 5g9 tremolux needs some attention. Get at it Bruce!
    Yeah, those are great amps... the real cabinet is bigger then a 5E3 and I still have about 22 (yes 22) fully finished and lacquered 5F11 cabinets to deal with.
    I'm still thinking I might take the chassis back to my silkscreener and have her wipe the ink of and re-ink it with Volume, Treble, Middle and Bass or drop the mid control and use V,T,B and a master volume, and build the things as a 1x12 low power Bassman.

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    Bruce

    Mission Amps
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    Senior Member TD_Madden's Avatar
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    I fear a pending GAS attack.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce / Mission Amps View Post
    Do you think there would be any interest in a tweed 5F11 Vibrolux kit?
    I'm interested.

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    Bruce,

    How does the voltages of the BFSR PT compare to the 5F11's PT?

    Stock PT on the 5F11 is running 340V B+ (with load), I gues a 270-0-270V (Root-m-Square 2 = +-380V B+)

    A BFSR +- 330-0-330V with a B+ over 400V's

    This show's in tone a very bright amp, compressed and no "tweed groawl"
    Also the pre-ampbias will affect due to higher voltages.

    E.g. to the schematic the 470 ohm voltagesplitter and the 22k needs higher figures instead stock. 5K1/3watt and 27k / 3watt to drop the voltage a bit.

    I'm also looking to a 5F11 chassis and thinking what transformers are best.
    Stock 5F11 PT and a tweed de luxe should go, little more sag but under the 120mA range for Imax.

    1-st Cap upgraded to a 20uF and the OT to the far right of the chassis(PT influences e.g. tweed de luxe problems)
    The 12" speaker is a big plus into this amp.

    I'm qurious to your answer.

    (folks excuse for my bad englisch writing)

    Regards Choc

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    Bruce,count me in.....

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    Senior Member cminor9's Avatar
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    Bruce, I was looking at your site to see what all you have. I was noticing that when I click on Kits I can only get to the 5E3 kit. You have links for other kits, but nothing there. Surely you are aware of this?

    What kinds of kits do you have? I am thinking about a 5G9 for my next build. I want to build a head instead of a combo. Got anything? I have been pricing the parts myself (good quality) and I keep hearing your kits are made from very good quality components. Your 5E3 kit is a great price for what you get. I'd be interested in seeing some of your other prices.

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    Senior Hollow State Tech Bruce / Mission Amps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cminor9 View Post
    Bruce, I was looking at your site to see what all you have. I was noticing that when I click on Kits I can only get to the 5E3 kit. You have links for other kits, but nothing there. Surely you are aware of this?

    What kinds of kits do you have? I am thinking about a 5G9 for my next build. I want to build a head instead of a combo. Got anything? I have been pricing the parts myself (good quality) and I keep hearing your kits are made from very good quality components. Your 5E3 kit is a great price for what you get. I'd be interested in seeing some of your other prices.
    I got seriously sidelined over the last 5 months with my shoulder rebuilding surgery (getting much better now) and haven't done any kits except the 5E3.
    I only have enough parts to do about 20 more of the 5F11 amps and I have a new one out in the Texas small club scene... doing some speaker and circuit mod "beta" testing over the last three or four weeks... I'll post his critique next week when it gets back here in Colorado... good or bad, positive and negative. I'm thick skinned!
    Regardless, I'm still not convinced a 5F11 kit is worth doing because already, I am getting odd comments and feedback with from others who have taken one out for a weekend test drive.... with respect to it being compared to a 5E3... which it is not.
    The Mission 5F11 has a 12" speaker and uses the larger 5E3 trannys, higher B+, fixed bias, but can make a very respectable 17-18 watts and although gets hard core tweed overdrive, is louder, brighter when needed and clearer sounding then the 5E3... but many players are really hung up on the 5E3 +10 watt tone ... it has been a hard sell.
    So, I've just been building the 5F11 amps myself and installing an Eminence NEO Lil' Texas or the NEO Tonker Lite.
    To be honest, I think they kill a 5E3 dead in the dirt when used in live, non-mic'd, low power, smaller venue or stage environments.... no contest.
    As a matter of fact, I think they sound a little bit more like brown Deluxe but with more balls, also a little louder, better head room and tone with a great sounding power tube tremolo.
    The other thing I've mentioned is that I am still considering taking the remaining 20 chassis' over to my silkscreener's shop and having all the ink wiped off and redoing them to read more like a single channel tweed Bassman only with 6V6s...
    the Mission: Bassboy.
    I have a modified eyelet board to do that and a chassis inked for it....

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    Mission Amps
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    www.missionamps.com
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    Senior Member TD_Madden's Avatar
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    Looks a lot like my tweed Gibson Explorer (except that the Explorer is cathode-biased and it's voltages are about 40v lower on the 6V6s.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by TD_Madden; 06-13-2008 at 12:41 AM.

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    Senior Hollow State Tech Bruce / Mission Amps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TD_Madden View Post
    Looks a lot like my tweed Gibson Explorer (except that the Explorer is cathode-biased and it's voltages are about 40v lower on the 6V6s.
    And remember, I am using a different rectifier, bigger power and output trannys (then a real 5F11) in mine... so the B+ is actually around +420vdc and it is fixed bias with the power tubes idling around 9-10 watts each.
    **********************
    Also, do you find that the tremolo starts up instantly with the Gibson?

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    Senior Member cminor9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce / Mission Amps View Post
    I got seriously sidelined over the last 5 months with my shoulder rebuilding surgery (getting much better now) and haven't done any kits except the 5E3.

    The Mission 5F11 has a 12" speaker and uses the larger 5E3 trannys, higher B+, fixed bias, but can make a very respectable 17-18 watts and although gets hard core tweed overdrive, is louder, brighter when needed and clearer sounding then the 5E3... but many players are really hung up on the 5E3 +10 watt tone ... it has been a hard sell.

    The other thing I've mentioned is that I am still considering taking the remaining 20 chassis' over to my silkscreener's shop and having all the ink wiped off and redoing them to read more like a single channel tweed Bassman only with 6V6s...
    the Mission: Bassboy.
    I have a friend who had a rotator cuff done, and he has to get the other. Recovery didn't sound like much fun. Sorry to hear that.

    As for comparisons to a 5E3, well, I have a 5E3. I love it. Now I want something different. I have been thinking about the 5G9, but I'll give the 5F11 schematic a look. I wish there was some way to actually hear, or better yet, play one. Only have so much time and cash, so I want to pick something that will knock my socks off.

    I saw another post you made about the bassboy. I have a Fender Hot Rod DeVille (which they *say* is based on the tweed bassman) and I put JJ 6V6s in there and it is a MUCH better amp for it. I love 6V6s. I am sure the bassboy will sound amazing.

    Now if only I could find some more freelance web development jobs to fund my next amp...

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    If I were to ditch the trem for 6V6 Bassman-ish thing, I'd just go with a 5F4/5E5-A/5E7 set up for 6V6's. But I really, really like trem.

    Bear

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    Senior Hollow State Tech Bruce / Mission Amps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gone Fission View Post
    If I were to ditch the trem for 6V6 Bassman-ish thing, I'd just go with a 5F4/5E5-A/5E7 set up for 6V6's. But I really, really like trem.

    Bear
    But I've already done a hundred of those. I think a little 6V6 sing 1x12 Bassman would be fun and satisfy a lot of requests for a good <20 watt amp with treble bass and midrange.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce / Mission Amps View Post
    But I've already done a hundred of those. I think a little 6V6 sing 1x12 Bassman would be fun and satisfy a lot of requests for a good <20 watt amp with treble bass and midrange.
    I guess I get where you're coming from, then. I imagine you've also spent more time than most with one-knob tone controls, so the charms might wear off a bit.

    (But if you give people a bass knob and a mid knob, they'll dial in too much of the former and too little of the later. The horror, the horror . . . )

    Bear

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    Senior Hollow State Tech Bruce / Mission Amps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gone Fission View Post
    I guess I get where you're coming from, then. I imagine you've also spent more time than most with one-knob tone controls, so the charms might wear off a bit.

    (But if you give people a bass knob and a mid knob, they'll dial in too much of the former and too little of the later. The horror, the horror . . . )

    Bear
    Don't get me wrong, the 5F4 tone stack, with tweed treble control and that weird bass control is still cool and in fact, better then the standard tweed single knob tone control, but the 5F6A circuit is really versatile and gives the amp the ability to get a classic and more modern day tone, all in one.
    The beauty of the single knob tone is that it still rips even if you can't really turn the bass down much at all.
    It only makes the amp much brighter and upper midrangey with higher sounding gain or less bright duller and less gainy... but with proper volume control use at the same time, you can get some fabulous tone out of that single tone knob.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce / Mission Amps View Post
    I think a little 6V6 sing 1x12 Bassman would be fun and satisfy a lot of requests for a good <20 watt amp with treble bass and midrange.
    I agree 100%. That's why the 6BM8 Bassman build was so appealing to me (with closer to 10watts of output though).

    I really like 6V6 based amps though, and I think a 6V6Bassman varient would be really sweet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce / Mission Amps View Post
    The Mission 5F11 has a 12" speaker and uses the larger 5E3 trannys, higher B+, fixed bias, but can make a very respectable 17-18 watts and although gets hard core tweed overdrive, is louder, brighter when needed and clearer sounding then the 5E3... but many players are really hung up on the 5E3 +10 watt tone ... it has been a hard sell.

    The other thing I've mentioned is that I am still considering taking the remaining 20 chassis' over to my silkscreener's shop and having all the ink wiped off and redoing them to read more like a single channel tweed Bassman only with 6V6s...
    the Mission: Bassboy.
    I have a modified eyelet board to do that and a chassis inked for it....
    Hi Bruce -

    I built a stock 5F11 clone a while back (posted about it here) and I really like it. I recall your comments about the limitations of the stock iron (I used Mercury 5F11 xformers) and you mentioned you use bigger iron. I personally would love to try one. I'd be very interested in buying a chassis and iron from you if you'd sell 'em that way. Or if you offered the whole thing as a kit, I'd be interested.

    -Kevin

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    Hello everyone, floated this toppic bottom-up again.
    I've finished one last month.

    Dan Marsh got a chassis for me and fun began.
    I took a stock Tweed vibrolux MM PT and a MM 5E3 OT for this one.
    The amp's got a liniar tonecontrol but still harsch volume increase; paul -C mod was added.
    Also a NFB switch added wat does the 5F11" tammed" -/ 5E3 trick. (closed-/open)

    The 3 input's are changed with different input resistors 1M +68k-/ stock 5e3 and a single 47k input.

    Kept it kathode biased, but the 56k was way's off a nice bias(50k-lin in series did the trick).
    And last but not least a nice 12" Weber was placed into it ( had to rout the speakerbaffle up to spec's and tube-allignment eg the alnico back of the speaker. A darn job but it fits nice)

    Sound? It's warm and creamy, 5E3 loudness but not distorted till the clock hits 8,5 for a nice tweed growl. NFB switched off and at 6 the bluese was back with slightly more headroom.

    The pre-amp tubes had to be dailed-in again at the kathodes to have the best bais. Esp. V1 ( 1.05V before, brought it back to 1.33V nearly stock schematic)

    The vibrato? Wel you have like it and learn to love it, it's a kind of " delayed vibrato" very loose, easy to dail in. (it does not match the Vibrochamp vibrato witch I think it's the best I'll ever heard)

    Rating? on a scale from 1 to 10 a nice 8+, droven in a couple of year's a shure 9.


    Greatings Chocorookie,
    The netherlands

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    Senior Hollow State Tech Bruce / Mission Amps's Avatar
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    Thumbs up NEW ... 5F11 Harp amp

    The latest one I built has been retuned for harp players and I like it a lot!
    Remember, all my cabinets are using a 12" speaker and baffle.
    This one has a Texas Heat in it with a little home made beaming and top end defeating, cone diffuser.
    I started with a GZ34/5AR4 and the power tubes idling hot at around +11 to 13 watts each.
    However, since my 5F11s are all fixed bias and I found I liked the harp amp tone better with the power tubes idling at about 5-7 watts each and a GZ30 rectifier. What a surprise to me.
    That is totally backwards to the NET driven, Class A tone, mass hysteria... you know, power tubes at full idle current opinions with respect to harp amps.

    Also, I redid the tweed tone control to match the Mission Amps designed 5F2H harp amp (seen on webervst) ... and added the first stage local NFB using a 4m7 resistor after the new 100nF coupling cap.
    https://taweber.powweb.com/store/5f2h_schem.jpg
    The other things I did were to keep the first stage plate voltage at around 135vdc-140vdc by altering the preamp stage B+ node resistor and fatten the tone a little with one step up larger coupling caps and cathode bypass caps plus, limit the total amount of top end by using a snubber cap across the first preamp stage's plate load resistor.

    The amp still has enough balls to drive the speaker to +18 watts at 80Hz with a reasonably clean signal, although it is a bit sensitive to microphone feedback so you have to stand back from it to turn it up real loud.

    Vibrato... I not have been able to 100% fix the slower start up of the vibrato circuit design.
    It is different circuit and different sounding then the black face ones of course but there is still something there that makes it a little sluggish when tapping on the foot pedal on-off switch.
    I can only assume it has to do with the single triode function of it and it taking a few hundred milliseconds to start oscillation again.

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    Last edited by Bruce / Mission Amps; 09-07-2008 at 08:04 PM. Reason: vibrato comment
    Bruce

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    Thumbs up

    Hi Bruce,

    your's is build, as i see, with a total different aproach of use. I kept mine a bit 5E3-isch with single coil guitars as main target.

    Everybody knows the dail-in-distorted 4+ on the 5E3 witch shows as an annoying feature for this amp.
    V1 pre-amp was kept low, tryed a 12ay7, vibrato dissapeared to the back ground. 1500 + 470 series at the kathode did the trick and tempered the thing + the discutable DC couppled Paul-C mod(I slightly differed it for lowwer dc at the anode and the NFB )
    The amp listens very wel to is volume knob now, and also (part of the volume) the tone knob. Sweetspot's in a row.

    20uF as 1-st filtercap kept the amp a bit thighter, in respect to the 16uF, but not that noticeable.
    I love to keep the 120Hz out when no choke is used (in respect to neat and nice builing, earthpath's, 90dgr. crossings etc.)

    Got nice 140V at the anodes, the PT( a shot in the dark chance for a mayby underrating power supply) settled very well regarding voltages.
    Stock 5Y3 rectifier, but no serious sag, only nice floating when cranked.

    Then de Vibrato, the kathode is grounded before you turn on the footswitch. The Caps needs a few 2*phi* f* C cycles to turn on the vib.
    Voltage swing on the bias is not liniar by turning on.
    This also in respect to the chosen biassettings, 14-/15 watt's at idle.

    NFB switch loosened the amp towards the 5E3 in respect to V1 and 12aY7.

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    Bruce,
    sorry for this slight thread hijack,
    I took a look at your site and liked very much that "Aurora Reverb" of yours.....
    Is there any chance you could offer it as a kit one day?
    I'm asking this because the shipping costs/customs/VAT fees here are terribly high, so with a kit I could build one saving some money, but I think others might as well be interested in such a project.
    Best regards
    Bob

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    What about this 5F11 kit Bruce?

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  28. #28
    Senior Hollow State Tech Bruce / Mission Amps's Avatar
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    If there were enough builders interested, I would put a few kits together... but pulling all the parts and docs for just one kit is kinda like, ... well, geeze, few more steps and I'll just build it myself from here and be done with it in about 6-8 hours. ha ha

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    Bruce

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    Senior Hollow State Tech Bruce / Mission Amps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voxrules! View Post
    Bruce,
    sorry for this slight thread hijack,
    I took a look at your site and liked very much that "Aurora Reverb" of yours.....
    Is there any chance you could offer it as a kit one day?
    I'm asking this because the shipping costs/customs/VAT fees here are terribly high, so with a kit I could build one saving some money, but I think others might as well be interested in such a project.
    Best regards
    Bob
    I haven't considered doing the Aurora as a kit... it has some proprietary circuitry that has some of my magic fairly dust on it... etc

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    Bruce

    Mission Amps
    Denver, CO. 80022
    www.missionamps.com
    303-955-2412

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