Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

DIY vs store bought

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • DIY vs store bought

    I was thinking of doing my first amp build, but when I looked at kits online, I felt a bit discouraged. I realized that I could buy a Fender Blues Jr. for the cost of even the lower-priced kits. Aside from the pleasure and learning you get from DIY amps, is the final product value better than if you had paid for a store-bought amp?

  • #2
    + 1 for DIY

    I like my DIY amps, but if I had the spare dosh I'd buy one of Bruce's 5F11 kits with the fixed bias and the beefier 5E3 PT and get a nicely made tweed covered cab to put it in just to say I had one in my collection. (Which is to say that so far my DIY is out of Hobson's Choice).

    On the up side, DIY definitely has more individualism, and are a form of artistic expression, but they take more work, and sometimes re-work, before you get to the finish. But if you have the time and the tools, go DIY.
    Attached Files
    Building a better world (one tube amp at a time)

    "I have never had to invoke a formula to fight oscillation in a guitar amp."- Enzo

    Comment


    • #3
      This is an interesting question to which I've given some thought.

      Building an amp from a kit definitely will provide a learning experience, some entertainment, and a sense of accomplishment. Some of the same could be said for restoring a vintage piece, too, while buying a new or used production amp has none of this, except for maintenance work and possible repairs down the road.

      The economics of it is maybe not the highest priority (as in any hobby activity), but here are some considerations:

      Many kits are based on classic designs which have become increasingly expensive and hard to find. But now that there are reissue products from both the original manufacturers and others, there is a way for anyone to get close to the originals in sound for a lower investment. However, in most people's opinions the reissues never seem to get it just right, and of course there are a number of reasons for this, including modern constraints on materials and methods of production, and the sale price point.

      I expect that the resale value of a kit-built version would be relatively less (as a percentage of the investment) than a commercially made product. I'd be interested in the experiences of others here.

      Just for fun, here's some numbers:

      Fender 4x10 Bassman

      Original in fine condition $7-10,000 or more
      Reissue (street price) $1,300
      Victoria boutique version (street price) $2,300
      Kit from established company $1,100 + some work (fun?)

      So the cheapest way in is the kit or the reissue. The reissue probably won't sound as good as a well made kit with good components, but might have better resale value. A possible alternative is to combine the two: buy a used reissue and gut it, replacing the PCB and other components with higher quality ones, the board being a hand-wired one built from a kit. This would likely cost more than a new reissue or a complete kit, but includes the DIY benefits and might have better resale value.

      The boutique version is arguably the best value, since it will have both good sound quality and will hold it's value. The down-side is that it requires ~2x the investment.

      Buying an original is really a different game, since there is collectability and appreciation involved, and these factors may be more important than playability. A restoration project might actually turn a profit if a good candidate could be found.

      What do others think?

      MPM

      Comment


      • #4
        The sound- and dynamic-quality depends greatly on the used speakers and transformers. In most cases the parts-costs when using top of the line components are higher than a pcb-re?ssue but if build correctly and with care you can obtain "boutique-quality" for (way) less than retail/street-prices if "your hours are free".

        As 1st "project" a tweed Champ or tweed Deluxe is way easier to build.
        Chris Winsemius

        www.CMWamps.com
        Vleuten, The Netherlands

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks!

          Thanks very much for the replies! I forgot to mention that was my first post. I have become obsessed with music electronics, but am starting from "way back" reading my first electronics text!

          I admire the folks who can wing it with bargain bin and salvage parts, but I suppose that is the master level.

          Comment


          • #6
            se3, how hard?

            How hard is the se3 kit? I am tempted to try it. First I'm going to build some boxes out of the "Electronics Projects for Musicians" book to get some soldering skills. At what point is a newbie ready for a kit like the se3?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Chris - CMW amps View Post
              The sound- and dynamic-quality depends greatly on the used speakers and transformers. In most cases the parts-costs when using top of the line components are higher than a pcb-re?ssue but if build correctly and with care you can obtain "boutique-quality" for (way) less than retail/street-prices if "your hours are free".

              As 1st "project" a tweed Champ or tweed Deluxe is way easier to build.
              Yes, good point (a well built kit will sound as good as boutique if the components are similar quality). I still believe the resale value, as a percentage of investment, of the boutique would be higher than a kit-built version though.

              MPM

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by martin manning View Post
                Yes, good point (a well built kit will sound as good as boutique if the components are similar quality). I still believe the resale value, as a percentage of investment, of the boutique would be higher than a kit-built version though.

                MPM
                Not necessarily, stick a custom name plate on the front of it and call yourself an amp company and sell your kit amp as a boutique hand built. You wouldn't be the first, I've seen plenty of guys do this. And it's not far from the truth. What the boutique guys have in many cases, not all but many, is name recognition. Get a couple of amps out to guys with high post counts on a couple of internet bbs's and all of a sudden you'll have name recognition too. I can think of several right off the top of my head that fit this description.

                Re the comparison to store bought amps like the Blues Jr, most of those amps have very compromised tone quality. And some that do sound pretty damn good stock (not the Blues Jr, but say the Crate V16 or V32, or the new Vox AC15 or AC30) have very questionable build quality. I'd much rather take a kit amp out gigging than a store bought amp. First of all I'd trust the amp more, and I also know that if it breaks I can fix it. I can fix the store bought amp too, but I'd rather work on a hand wired amp than a mass produced pcb amp.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Forget the cost aspect, if you want cheap go with a mass market PCB amp.

                  I have heard plenty of re-issues that will give many old amps a run for their money when properly set up, a kit won't sound better because it is a kit, it will only sound better if it's built by a savvy buillder.

                  As a first step, I'd perhaps look at some old/cheap amps and try a few simple mods, develop your ear and learn step by step what the various stages do & how they interract.

                  If you must try a build then start with a champ/5F2A type amp, something simple that's relatively easy to troubleshoot.

                  If you want a 5E3 that works when you fire it up, go with a kit that comes with full instructions like the Mission. Have look at plenty of pics of built, working examples and don't try and reinvent the wheel.

                  Otherwise, if that kit sounds expensive now, wait until you've spent the money, taken a week to build it & can't get it to work!

                  Lastly, get to hear a 5E3 before you build it, so that you know what you're letting yoursell in for, they have a big following for sure but they're not to everyone's taste.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MWJB View Post
                    ...
                    Lastly, get to hear a 5E3 before you build it, so that you know what you're letting yoursell in for, they have a big following for sure but they're not to everyone's taste.
                    Ah men to that! Unrealistic expectations are very hard to get past once you've paid your money and end up building something you wouldn't have really liked had you heard one first!
                    The 5E3 is a relatively uncomplicated amp with incredible, rich harmonic, classic sound and a blast to play....but, it is not a black face Fender sound and you aren't going to get this amp to cover all the music bases or do metal band stuff.

                    Kits are not cheap because someone has done all the logistical brain damage for you first and supplied you with everything you need (less tools) to build something that has been proven to work over and over again, and hopefully, offer and deliver the support, or hand holding, some novice builders need during the process.
                    Some vendors are better at that and more patient then others but the idea is or should be the same.
                    Also, don't discount or over look the HUGE wealth of help right here from some very generous and superior techs or builders.
                    Real Yoda types that frequently blow my mind!! ha ha

                    If you have never done anything like this, read up a little, practice some solder skills on any old gronk piece of something somewhere and or try a small 5F1 champ type amp first.
                    Then when you are hooked on building your own amps (and the pride that comes with it)... move up to more sophisticated amps designs.
                    Bruce

                    Mission Amps
                    Denver, CO. 80022
                    www.missionamps.com
                    303-955-2412

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Mass-produced amps, in my extensive experience in the repair industry, currently have the most piss-poor component quality I've ever seen, and questionable build quality. If I were to purchase an off-the-shelf amp to gig with, I would go through it with a fine-tooth comb looking for potential failure points, e.g. solder joints, wiring issues, etc., but it would NOT encompass wholesale replacement of components sourced from Far East places you've never heard of. THAT is what scare me.

                      With a kit amp, you know every single components going in, every single wire and solder joint. For those who are experienced, it is practically a no-brainer. However, if you have NEVER built a kit amp, or anything electronic for that matter, even a 5E3, which is relatively simple, is not the place to start. However, I will take a kit amp over ANYTHING sold in GC or Sam Ash. Perhaps even other boutique amps, because I'd rather know everything that goes into it, including every last solder joint and even the type of solder used. That's why I build my own amps, as well as guitars and drums. I really don't use any instruments or amps that I don't personally build.

                      My son wants a Marshall amp. I will probably purchase the unloaded boards and chassis from Ceriatone, purchase selected components and transformers, plus a cabinet, and do the rest myself. That way, if something DOES happen, I know who to blame!
                      John R. Frondelli
                      dBm Pro Audio Services, New York, NY

                      "Mediocre is the new 'Good' "

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        A compromise -

                        Look at your costs. You need an enclosure, a chassis, input and output transformers, speaker (if its a combo), reverb tank (if you have taste), knobs, power cord, fuse holder, input and output jacks, and on and on.

                        You can trim your cost way, way down by starting with a used amp and re-using all these items. Many amps are amenable to removal of the existing circuitry and replacement with circuitry of your own design.

                        Old Carvin amps have nice sturdy cabinets, decent speakers, reverb, OTs with separate bias taps and provision for a +/-15V supply, and sometimes even a 5-band graphic EQ module, and even minty ones rarely go for more than $400. I've got lots. I think an average 60W X-series head needing minor repair went or didn't go on eBay for $175 with free shipping in the last day or two.

                        Badly injured Marshall and Fender amps are affordable too.

                        Now this approach takes a bit more know-how than buying a full kit and following the instructions, which is another approach that others have used to successfully enter the wonderful world of amplifiers. You'll be responsible for getting lots of power and high-voltage circuitry right without killing yourself. You'll have to figure out the right caps and resistors to buy for each location. But I think a period of study prior to hands-on activity makes more sense anyway.

                        Martin's example points out an exception. If you really want to do a clone or derivative of a vintage hand-wired amp, the kits aren't priced crazy. I'm sure the vendors will admit that they're not getting rich quick off them. There's plenty of competition. Tracking down parts is lots of work that requires some skill, and the vendor gets to amortize this effort over many more units than you will with your one-off. They've also built and documented each kit, and know that the pieces play well together.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks again

                          Thanks agian to all who replied. I've joined other user groups, but I have never received such generous, thoughtful and articulate replies as the ones posted here! Many thanks.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Or you could take the Werner Herzog route and do (or not do) what I did. Build your own recipes from scratch. I've experienced the gamut from stark terror to sheer boredom and in two years I have almost nothing to show for it except for few working prototypes (though I'm almost done with my first actual amp-in-a-box).

                            Frustration and reward and I've learned a boatload. It would have been easier (smarter) to buy a kit, but I'm a stupid person. I've spent way too much time with this passing interest, which became a hobby, skipped over passion altogether and went straight through to addiction. Ah, well, cheaper than a shrink.

                            I've always hated the expression "Don't reinvent the wheel".

                            Build an amp.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              As a means for getting a decent amp, a used off the shelf amp is the way to go price-wise (to use the Bassman example, a reissue sold this week for $700). But there's so much to learn from building them yourself. Plus, a new store-bought amp is fun and exciting for all of about 2 days. Building one will keep you busy for months.

                              In addition to the Champ, the AX84 Firefly is a really interesting and well supported (PCB's are available) project that I would recommend for beginners. Low wattage, cheap to build (I didn't keep good track of it, but I think it was around $300 total for a head), and different than anything commercially available.
                              Check out my signal generator for your iPhone or iPod Touch.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X