Recommend Black Face Deluxe Reverb Kit

[Diablo]

I want to build a BF Deluxe Reverb kit. I'd prefer just the head, but may consider a combo. I want everything in the kit to be first class because I only want to do this once. I'd like to hear recommendations from the folks with experience, even some manufacturers if possible. I've been looking at Allen amps and Weber so far.

[Chris - CMW amps]

If you truly want the best you need different suppliers for this project; one for the cabinet, one for the transformers, one for the speaker(s), etc., etc.

It's all very subjective but I did do it a couple of times for customers;
- cab/chassis/eyeletboards/etc. from Mojotone
- Celestion Heritage H30 speaker(s)
- Mercury Magnetics transformers and choke
- Accutronics reverb-tank
- TAD ("audiocap") e-caps for the powersupply and cathodes
- couple of Sprague e-caps
- Mallory and/or TAD ("mustards") coupling-caps
- Alpha and/or Weber pots (depending on the taper)

Hope this does help a bit.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

I'd go with a dead stock MOJO kit. The parts included are all high quality, top notch!
I think it is superior to all others in just about all respects and uses Heyboer transformers.

No real serious changes at all except:
use five 22uF-500v TAD main B+ filter caps (I think they are actually SINO import caps, but excellent),
Use a real NOS 5U4GB rectifier tube,
and, mess with the first stage preamp tubes if you can get some NOS ones.
I've built two myself, worked on and tweaked three others for home brew builders and have been very happy with the results when used with a G12H30 speaker.

[Mandopicker]

The Mojo Deluxe Reverb is a great kit to build.

As was suggested, all parts are top notch. I did, on the other hand, beef up the filter caps even more as well as subbed silver mica for ceramic disks when possible.

My kit came with the GZ34 (All JJ tubes)

Perhaps later the speaker can be upgraded, but I don't think that the entire kit suffers as a result if the supplied Jenson C12.

[Diablo]

I did a little googling on mojokits, and folks claim there are little to no instructions with the kits. That worries me. I'd like a kit to have good instructions and support behind it if I need it. On the other hand, Allen kits are claimed to have good instructions and support. So, can anyone compare the components and schematic used in Allen Accomplice (BF Deluxe Reverb topology) to the Mojo, and how they sound?

[Mandopicker]

My Mojo came with a very large printout (11x17) of the original schematic and Layout making it real easy to follow.

As far as additional instructions...you certainly have a wealth of knowledge available from folks in this forum.

Pretty sure that whatever you will come across during the process has been seen a thousand times before by others and as a result, ideas and solutions abound.

Go with the kit that offers the best parts relative to what you would like to spend, and your comfort zone with a soldering iron.

You'll be fine.

Just my 2 cents.

[TheTinMan]

Check out the kit from Marsh Amplification. Don't know about what instructions you might get, but Marsh sells Mojo cabs, chassis, etc. for less than Mojo. Also, you can get a nice Weber speaker too. Excellent customer service for getting parts.

That said, Dave Allen's kits are top notch quality and his support is supposed to be excellent (no direct experience w/ Allen's kits).

Hope this helps,

Chip

[cminor9]

I am still a bit of a noob at this whole amp building game, but I have read the opinions of some experts who believe "parts is parts". When you think about it from one aspect, Fender even in the 50s and 60s was a business which needed to be profitable. You don't get profitable by using the costliest parts you can find. You find the best value parts (and not necessarily the *cheapest*) that will work and make em work. Sure, Leo Fender was obviously after a certain tone. But he was a businessman.

http://www.tone-lizard.com/Electronic_Parts.htm is where I found an interesting article discussing this. Do you think that using the finest transformers money can buy or those expensive capacitors really makes a difference? Knowing what I know about marketing and gullibility I am really inclined to think it is snake oil. All you amp experts out there, what is your take on this notion? Anyone with any *real* experience out there building amps from cheaper parts vs expensive parts?

Please note that I am not talking about using the cheapest parts money can buy. I am talking about using say, a decent but maybe not top shelf Hammond transformer as opposed to an overpriced MM. Good old orange drops as opposed to $20-a-pop coupling caps.

Anyone?

[geoffbob]

Hi: <first post and going out on an opinion limb already>

cminor9 makes a good point. This whole business of tone is highly subjective. I have some experience with blind test results in ABing different components and generally agree. This is also a classic can o' worms topic so lots of fun to discuss. Without a blind AB test you never know. Ever read a review of an expecnsivve piece of equipment where the new owner admitted it is crap and they are stupid for buying it. More than likely they say "this changed my life", then 8 months later they are reviewing the next one.

My opinion is similarly constructed components will be electrically equivalent - a .1 uF bypass cap is a .1 uF bypass cap. Caps of similar construction will generally sound the same, but comparing ceramic disks to poly caps will show up differences due to the physical construction and materials used. Similarly with transformers... I have swapped out different output transformers and observed different tonal charactersitics, I expect due to the metal type and mass in the plates, not the wiring specs - which are the same.

I follow this rule with kit builds: use great speakers, use good OTs (Heyboer have always worked for me here - MMs are expensive for similar results), use good controls (pots, switches, jacks) - anything that gets hands on it needs to be robust, then build it like you care how it turns out. I have never had bad results following this model and people love my amps.

Cheers, ..Geoff

[TheTinMan]

Geoff & cminor make sense IMHO. If you get decent quality components, you should be fine. The speaker, cab & OT make the biggest difference as far as I can tell.

Take cables for example. Can I hear the difference between a private label cheapie from the local music store and a decent Planet Waves/Monster/George L/decent DIY? Sure can! Can I hear the difference between the Planet Waves - Monster - George L - decent DIY? barely if at all and a tweak of my guitar's tone knob makes a much bigger change in tone. It's more a matter of taste if anything IME.

But Diablo wants a good BF Deluxe kit. He doesn't seem to want to source all of his own parts and I don't blame him. Even trying to minimize the number of sources, shipping ate up over 10% of the cost of my last build. Either Allen or Marsh would be good alternatives for him, providing all of the necessary parts with better than adequate quality.

Chip

[cminor9]

Oh no, you mentioned cables! Now you've opened the box

With cables, I cannot tell a whole lot of difference. To me, what makes the most difference is the length of the cable. I use a 12' cable instead of a 25' or 30' cable.

I am of the belief that if you can't measure it it doesn't exist. Carbon comp resistors provide a measurable effect (distortion and non-linearity, which can be good). You can theoretically measure impedance over a long cable. I don't think you can measure any differences between a Monster Cable and a cheapie. Sure, maybe the lighter cable would melt of you ran 15 amps (amperes, not guitar amps) through it. Think of how small the signal is from a guitar pickup. Why on earth would anyone think you need a 12ga wire for that?

I get a kick out of those audiophile websites that tout the benefits of $1k/foot oxygen-free virgin copper cable or $60 foil-in-oil coupling capacitors. I also get a kick out of those mojo vitamin-T caps for the same reason. Until someone can *measure* a difference between the various caps, count me out.

I am surprised nobody has disagreed with the original point yet.

[Diablo]

I made my decision and ordered a Mojo kit from Marsh Amps with a Weber 12A125 Alnico speaker. I'll be reporting back here for more advice, I'm sure. I've got quite a few good vintage tubes to try out in the amp, and will sub in a 5U4GB rectifier tube as per Bruce's suggestion. Thanks for everyone's help on this one...

[TheTinMan]

Diablo - I know that you wanted one-stop shopping, but if that kit uses "tag board" with eyelets you might want to consider getting a pre-made board made out of Garrolite from Watts Tube Audio (turretboards.com). You can get an AB763 board made with either eyelets or turrets. I've had really good experience with them.

You did say you wanted the build to be "first class" and tagboard is not IMHO.

Chip

[MWJB]

C Minor wrote "With cables, I cannot tell a whole lot of difference. To me, what makes the most difference is the length of the cable. I use a 12' cable instead of a 25' or 30' cable. " There is a huge difference between the sound of differing brands & constructions of cables. A few years ago I tested a whole bunch all at 10'. I have made 25' cables that still sound better than average (performance-wise) cables of 10'.

What difference do you want to measure, like capactance per foot, (most manufacturers have figures, 25pf/ft is good going, I think Lava have a 15pf/ft cable!). What do you do when 2 cables with the same spec sound vastly different (it happens). It's easier to measure with a good meter than the difference between carbon comp/film resistors. How exactly do you measure your carbon comp resistors, at home, to show the tone difference?

You don't need to spend vast sums on decent cable, many really good sounding cables are mid priced (Klotz La Grange, Planet Waves, Sommer Session II). Some budget cables are surprisingly good (Proel) and colour the sound in a pleasant manner, some $10+/foot cables are pretty good but not astounding...you have to suck 'em and see. After breaking down as many aspects as I could, there was not a definite trend, that I could spot, that favoured one method of construction (thickness of conductor, type of dialetric, spiral vs. braided sheild) over another. So, yes there is a degree of snake oil out there, everyone's got a USP to shout about that seperates their product from the herd...it's just they don't all work when it comes to the execution (like all products in life).

How do you measure the performance of a band/musician/CD/amp tone...? You listen to it.

"I am surprised nobody has disagreed with the original point yet." Check out "new" pricess for amps from the 50's & 60's, Fenders WERE relatively expensive. They did spend more on parts than a lot of other manufacturers. Check out the specs on the blonde Vibrasonic. A bunch of the early 60's 40W amps were built with 100W power transformers.

I suspect that you're playing Devil's Advocate to degree here.

[cminor9]

"I suspect that you're playing Devil's Advocate to degree here. "

Heh, maybe a bit. I do like to question conventional wisdom. Just trying to stimulate a discussion. This is something that I have been thinking about as I start sourcing my next build. Do I need to spend top dollar on speakers? Well, yeah a good speaker definitely. But top dollar for capacitors, MM transformers, etc? I don't know, and I am leaning away from it. But before I plunk down my hard earned, I'd like to discuss with *someone* who knows something AND isn't trying to sell me anything.

"Check out "new" pricess for amps from the 50's & 60's, Fenders WERE relatively expensive."
Well sure, they were certainly more expensive than other amps. But they weren't as expensive as today's boutique amps. I'd be interested in finding some inflation calculator that goes back to 1955, because I doubt the Fender deluxe cost the equivalent of what it goes for today as a reissue. My point was that Leo Fender still had a business to run. Good businesses don't lose money, they make money. The way to make money is to cut costs. The way to cut costs is look for values. Value doesn't mean you go el cheapo. It means you get the best products you can so long as it doesn't negatively affect your profit margin or your price point. I seriously doubt Leo Fender would use MM transformers today unless they cut him a serious break.