how to mic amps for sound samples...

[Possum]

I'm starting to realize how little I know about recording amps. If you saw my other post in the PAF thread and my sound sample, the best tone I got was from 4 feet away off center, not close up to the amp. I'm just using a $30 powered video camera microphone. I'd like to spend maybe a $100 and get something decent so any tips here would be appreciated. I've also been using an old 4 track cassette recorder as preamp and wonder if I should do something else or go straight into the Mac? Thoughts?

[Peter Naglitsch]

Recording amps is a difficult task. I have been a live tech for 20 years, owning a small recording studio for ten years and I still think it is hard. You need a really good amp and really a good microphone to start with. Then you need a nice preamp and a good room to record in. And if you are going to compare recorded sounds you need to be able recreate the exact same conditions over and over again.

I?m going to stick my neck out here:
If you are posting it on Youtube or make it available as MP3s for downloading you might as well use a POD. I mean that seriously! The compression used for Youtube or MP3s kills most sound and if you use a programmable unit you will at least have consistency between runs. Use the same setting for all tests and the viewer (listener) have a common base line between tests. You might even give away your settings/amp simulations used and the listener can relate even more, trying with their own POD. For recording you get a nice analog stereo output or use the USB interface and plug it directly into your Mac. And you can get the TonePort GX for more or less nuthin? (50$ or less) http://line6.com/toneportgx/

[Steve Conner]

I agree with Peter. As Mr. T said, I pity the fool who tries to judge pickup and amp tone from Youtube clips.

[kevinT]

Soundclips are a necessary evil. Potential customers want to hear what the pickup sounds like. Unfortunately, they only get to hear a small representation of what the pickup can actually do.

The tone has so much to do with the pickup (whether it has cover, for example), amp (settings), strings, player's style, etc.... I am attempting to come up with some language to convey this to customers on my site to bring home this point.

For example, my pickups sound totally different than Jeff's soundclips on my site when I play through my rig and use my guitars.

I finally purchased a video cam and hope to shoot some footage. I will probably demonstrate the pickups using clean tones, distorted tones, and use them with pedals so folks can hear the variety of sounds the pickup is capable of generating.

[Possum]

...

Yes the youtube stuff is compressed but you can still tell what my stuff sounds like pretty well, I've never ever had anyone tell me my pickups dont sound like my sound samples, I use mp3's and YouTube. Peter Green's videos sound killer, that guy with Dickie Betts has a great rig and that tone sounds great through my speakers, I don't think a POD is going to be real enough for me. I have one of those Johnson POD type things that reviews I've read say sounds better than a POD yet, I can't get any real tones out of it at all, it all sounds totally fake to me. There's just no way to get somethng that sounds like my Vibrolux out of one of those, sorry. MOst of my mp3's were done on the minidisc and sound alot better than going direct into the computer, thats why I'm looking into getting a really good mic and interface to get more full range recordings. I'm not totally against PODs and have a friend who did his whole album that way , but his tones were pretty clean, I just don't hear real tube sounds for the kind of stuff I play, they're not for me.
A big problem with sound clips on YouTube is guys are using high gain amps and pedals on top of that, so what the hell do the pickups actually sound like? You can't tell. Take all that crap out of the loop and plug it straight into a simple stupid tube amp and let me hear it that way, then I can hear what the pickup does on its own, thats the way I make my clips, but then again thats the way most of my customers play too. Anyway, there's some stuff on Ebay for not too much thats gotta be better than what I'm doing now so its worth having some fun with it....

[soundmasterg]

Dave, give me a call. You know I've got a ton of experience with recording, and have some decent mics you can use, and I'm a dealer for some select few if you want to buy some.

Recording in your carpeted room upstairs will give you a muffled sound no matter how good the mics are btw.

Give me a ring and we can talk about the options.

Greg

[Yves]

I am a sound engineer myself. Though mostly involved in commercials and now electronic games, I came across quite a few music recordings for commercials in my career.

Yes getting a good recording by micing an amp may be difficult. However, if the setup and the player sounds good in the first place, this is all getting easier IMO. Besides, you don't want to include this in a whole production, so you don't have to care about getting the right sound that fit in the mix (well I assume you just want to have the guitar sound)

Now, out of the studio world, to me the most difficult thing is the room: you don't want to pickup noise, and I second Soundmasterg on the fact that a carpeted room will end up with a dull sound. Having a live room (well normal, not a bathroom), is much better. Next thing is trying to find the right place for the amp in the room, and then for the mic vs the amp to get the sound you like the best (proper mix with direct sound and room sound, slight off-axis micing may be interesting in that purpose). Testing and listening...

I think you want to reproduce a faithful sound, so I would recommend a static mic anyway. I've been lucky working with Neumann or such, but I think that nowadays you have really decent mics for decent prices. Still, getting both a mic and a preamp may be tricky for 100$, but why not.

True, mp3 worsen the sound but I feel the mood is still there in some extent.

Getting consistency between recording is not that difficult: take notes of all settings (pots position on amp and preamp, position of mic and amp in the room, guitar setup): that's what was done in studios for recall, before the "all in the box" era (and still is sometimes).

Finally, from my personal taste, I don't like much demos with big reverbs and such because what I want to here in a demo is the gear that is demoed, not some external effects units , hence the importance of the room to avoid a dull sound (but that's my point of view).

Yves.

[Possum]

...

Yeah one of the things that surprised me in my PAF demos is I got a couple emails asking if I could do one without the reverb! I had very little reverb in the samples and apparently this irritates some people :-) I don't like playing a dry amp tone so always add a tiny bit, doesn't really color the pickup tone, they sound the same without it. Never thought about the carpet thing much, maybe my small bathroom with rugs removed and door closed might work better, worth a try...

[dpm]

Another option would be amp -> loadbox (weber mass, thd hotplate etc.) -> line out.... record that to get the sound of your pre and power amp sections, then apply a speaker cabinet impulse to that.

[RedHouse]

Another opinion would be (opinion alert! duck-n-run for cover) that you should have another person play while you seek your sound critique and also your best mic placement(s). Listen with headphones in another room between placements. Try to bring the signal into your equipment as flat as possible.
(you can add reverb in your monitor send (headphones) if you need/like it)

The reason I say "you should have another person play" is because of a weird phenomenon that occurs to a player when they listen critically to their own self, while playing, they get influenced by things such as the tactile feedback the guitar/amp/strings etc give to the player infuencing the sound opinion (opinion alert! duck-n-run for cover) he/she develops.

We all think we play pretty good, but if you want a objective opinion (opinion alert! duck-n-run for cover) you should consider hearing the pickups/guitar/amp etc while someone else plays, that way you dis-associate yourself from the instrument/system and judge strictly on the quality of sound/tone.

[pupoholic]

thats some great points being made here..

I tried using a ZOOM -- was not real happy with it
I went back to my cassette recorder - it sucked..

Just the other day I scored a tube radio 1966 dual speakers by GE - the Oldies sound great on it - cause they were recorded to translate thru the tubes back then.. and they do -- I love it..

maybe the trick would be to use what is the popular receiver today -- and we all know sound bites will be listened to on PC's - so the trick is to use what sound best coming back thru these PC's... and thats a toughy!

Don

[David Schwab]

Yeah one of the things that surprised me in my PAF demos is I got a couple emails asking if I could do one without the reverb! I had very little reverb in the samples and apparently this irritates some people :-) I don't like playing a dry amp tone so always add a tiny bit, doesn't really color the pickup tone, they sound the same without it. Never thought about the carpet thing much, maybe my small bathroom with rugs removed and door closed might work better, worth a try...

I know bass is different, but that's why I record very flat dry samples. Then I do some with EQ and all.

Put the mic right up to the speaker, and then throw a blanket over the amp.

[David Schwab]

We all think we play pretty good, but if you want a objective opinion (opinion alert! duck-n-run for cover) you should consider hearing the pickups/guitar/amp etc while someone else plays, that way you dis-associate yourself from the instrument/system and judge strictly on the quality of sound/tone.

I've thought of doing this, because I play a certain way, and get a certain tone, but whenever I get another good player to play one of my basses I cringe! They don't pluck the strings hard enough for me, and they sound too blurry. I suppose they aren't used to playing my basses either.

But I am going to seek out a couple of players and use them for testers.

But I guess I'm a player first, and I happen to make instruments and pickups, but I made them for my own use really. So they sound like what I like. But I like doing it so why not make them for other people? But it's really for me first.

[Possum]

...

I noticed that those SM57 mics have a narrow frequency range, and according to the Ebay auction 99% of all tunes you hear on the radio have amps recorded with those mics. I have some vocal mics around and tried one of those and liked that alot better. I guess a full frequency mic used up close to the speaker is a mistake. I don't quite get this close micing the amp thing anyway, who listens to amps that way? No one, you always hear an amp from about ten feet away right? In the distance away alot of treble stuff doesn't get heard, and guitars with a full band behind them alot more gets drowned away by drums and bass. So I think the SM57 might be a better idea, close mic and then put one further out for room ambiance. I may end up selling this Victoria Regal II, its a damn nice amp but its just not doing it for me and isn't loud enough when the jams get on the louder side of things. Anyone get any of those Ceriatone amps? Those things sure are a good deal...

[greenfingers]

I don't quite get this close micing the amp thing anyway, who listens to amps that way? No one, you always hear an amp from about ten feet away right? In the distance away alot of treble stuff doesn't get heard, and guitars with a full band behind them alot more gets drowned away by drums and bass. So I think the SM57 might be a better idea, close mic and then put one further out for room ambiance

Just experiment with placing the mic in different positions. you can even place a mic behind your amp if its open backed. The further away the mic is from the amp the more ambient sound you get, (more of the room's sound) close micing gets a more direct sound. Maybe you should look for a vintage mic that was used around the same time as all them P.A.F tones were recorded. A lot of studio's now have a colection of vintage mic's just to get the old school sound. But then you probably want to let buyers hear your pickups and nothing other than that. You cant go wrong with a SM57