Flame suit on- what is the deal with 18 watt clones?

[MacLoud]

Hi Gentlemen

Just a remeniscence about these little 18 watt Marshall combos.
I worked for Mr Marshall in the late 60s as a shop assistant. Marshall had moved from the two little shops in Hanwell and had opened quite a large store in Ealing Broadway (West London). It was an attempt at what in the USA is called a "Mom and Pop store) in the respect that it sold all kinds of musical instruments and not just rock oriented stuff.
We "shoppos or Oafs" had to dust and polish all the violins and Lowery organs every day. Various Slingerland drum kits were on show, with two large Paiste & Zildjian cymbal trees that had to be kept clean. However we had a wall of Marshall amps that stretched from the front of the shop to the back. Stacks of two matching cabinets and amps in every colour that Marshall ever made. Black, White, Red, Yellow, Orange, possibly Blue and Green but I also seem to remember Purple.....
but tucked away in a corner were two of the 18 watt amps, I cannot remember what speaker configuration they were but they just never sold in all the time I worked there and for some time after.

50 watt amps sold the best at that time, as they were the least expensive way into the "real" Marshall world, 100 watt amps were next and if you were really quite well off, or deaf, the Marshall Major was your amp of choice.
The two little Marshall 18 watt amps sat there for some years and when the shop stock was all transferred elsewhere, as the shop was closing, in the early 70s they were still there. Nobody liked them then, everybody seemed to think that they did not have the Marshall sound. We must have sold hundreds of Marshall heads and other combos but these stuck like crap to a blanket...
Too much time has passed for me to say what they really sounded like but as I played through a Marshall Major at the time I was probably not impressed.
It is quite strange that such an upopular amp at that time, is now the centre of such popularity and that I am now happiest playing through a Tweed Pro clone. Time fades away.....

[Chuck H]

A few weeks ago we had former Heart guitarist, Roger Fisher, sit in with us and I set him up with my spare 18W and a 25W Celestion. He comented on what a beautiful tone it got.

OMG

Rick... Roger Fisher is one of my heros. Major points. He always used the gear available to get the best tone for the job. And he always played something slightly unexpected and exiting. Heart without Roger Fisher is like mashed potatoes without gravy... Why bother. You should feel honored (as I'm sure you do). He obviosly recognises good tone

Chuck

[Chad Etchison]

Hi Gentlemen

Just a remeniscence about these little 18 watt Marshall combos.
I worked for Mr Marshall in the late 60s as a shop assistant. Marshall had moved from the two little shops in Hanwell and had opened quite a large store in Ealing Broadway (West London). It was an attempt at what in the USA is called a "Mom and Pop store) in the respect that it sold all kinds of musical instruments and not just rock oriented stuff.
We "shoppos or Oafs" had to dust and polish all the violins and Lowery organs every day. Various Slingerland drum kits were on show, with two large Paiste & Zildjian cymbal trees that had to be kept clean. However we had a wall of Marshall amps that stretched from the front of the shop to the back. Stacks of two matching cabinets and amps in every colour that Marshall ever made. Black, White, Red, Yellow, Orange, possibly Blue and Green but I also seem to remember Purple.....
but tucked away in a corner were two of the 18 watt amps, I cannot remember what speaker configuration they were but they just never sold in all the time I worked there and for some time after.

50 watt amps sold the best at that time, as they were the least expensive way into the "real" Marshall world, 100 watt amps were next and if you were really quite well off, or deaf, the Marshall Major was your amp of choice.
The two little Marshall 18 watt amps sat there for some years and when the shop stock was all transferred elsewhere, as the shop was closing, in the early 70s they were still there. Nobody liked them then, everybody seemed to think that they did not have the Marshall sound. We must have sold hundreds of Marshall heads and other combos but these stuck like crap to a blanket...
Too much time has passed for me to say what they really sounded like but as I played through a Marshall Major at the time I was probably not impressed.
It is quite strange that such an upopular amp at that time, is now the centre of such popularity and that I am now happiest playing through a Tweed Pro clone. Time fades away.....

Oh, what those amps would be worth in todays collector market.

My GDS 18 watt sounds amazing, I don't use pedals with it, just dime it and let it rip. There is something special about the GDS transformers.

[Steve A.]

... 50 watt amps sold the best at that time, as they were the least expensive way into the "real" Marshall world, 100 watt amps were next and if you were really quite well off, or deaf, the Marshall Major was your amp of choice.

The two little Marshall 18 watt amps sat there for some years and when the shop stock was all transferred elsewhere, as the shop was closing, in the early 70s they were still there. Nobody liked them then, everybody seemed to think that they did not have the Marshall sound. We must have sold hundreds of Marshall heads and other combos but these stuck like crap to a blanket...

Too much time has passed for me to say what they really sounded like but as I played through a Marshall Major at the time I was probably not impressed.

It is quite strange that such an unpopular amp at that time, is now the centre of such popularity and that I am now happiest playing through a Tweed Pro clone. Time fades away.....

Thanks for sharing your memories! Being unpopular doesn't necessarily mean that they were crappy amps. Yes, they were quite different from what we expect from a Marshall amp- just a single gain stage going to a volume and tone control- with and without tremelo (which was not very popular at all in the late 60's and early 70's).

A few other notes: at the Mom and Pop music stores here in the US back then you really could not turn the amps up very loud- especially if they also sold pianos. I don't know if that was the case at the music store that you worked at. And back then you might not have had a good stomp box around to check out the overdriven sounds- I dunno.

I can think of a lot of stuff I have bought over the years that no one else wanted, which turned out to be real gems! (Along with a lot of "frogs" that never did turn into princes... )

Steve Ahola

P.S. I'm not sure where the line is drawn as to what would be considered a Marshall 18 watt "clone" since many of them are quite different from the original amps. I guess you can add a TMB tone stack, but I don't think two EL84 version of a Plexi would qualify... whaddaya'all think?

[MacLoud]

Steve

It was a very busy main street in West London outside the Marshall shop, we could and did, demo the equipment flat out very often. With the noise of all the passing traffic, 100 watt stacks got lost in the background noise. The little amps must have seemed underpowered in comparison.

The only complaint that I remember was when the factory chaps brought down 10 x 100 watt valves slaves, a mixer and some sort of prototype radio mike (not made by Marshall) wired it all up to cabinets in the shop and turned it all on. People from shops way over the road came to comment on the horrid din of techie types saying "one, two, one, two testing"
Nowadays we would all be instantly arrested, aah happy days....

[Enzo]

Don't worry, we'll protect you.

Hey, you, get off of MacLoud...





(Yes, I did actually just say that.)

[Steve A.]

Steve

It was a very busy main street in West London outside the Marshall shop, we could and did, demo the equipment flat out very often. With the noise of all the passing traffic, 100 watt stacks got lost in the background noise. The little amps must have seemed underpowered in comparison.

The only complaint that I remember was when the factory chaps brought down 10 x 100 watt valves slaves, a mixer and some sort of prototype radio mike (not made by Marshall) wired it all up to cabinets in the shop and turned it all on. People from shops way over the road came to comment on the horrid din of techie types saying "one, two, one, two testing"

Nowadays we would all be instantly arrested, aah happy days....

That sounds like Leo's Music in Oakland, California, which had equiped many of the bands in the SF Area in the 60's and the 70's. Definitely a "family" business but I have a hunch that the family was from New Jersey and not Kansas...

I guess it was a sign of the times that the Marshall 18 watter was so unpopular- in 1969 I traded my tweed Deluxe back to Leo for $50 so that I could buy an amp with reverb! I could kick myself for being such an idiot!

For a head with roughly the same wattage, check out the brand new Rebel 20 from Egnater... only $600! I'm going to check one out tomorrow- some of the interesting features include a blend control which sets the balance between two 6V6's and two EL84'S! And some sort of power scaling scheme that you can dial down to 1 watt:

http://www.egnateramps.com/Rebel20.html

Steve Ahola

P.S. Practically none of the SF bands had Marshall equipment in the 60's- I can only think of Blue Cheer which set records in the amount of decibels generated. It was more common to see some kind of Fender, often with an extension cab and always a stomp box or two. A Twin Reverb on top of a Showman cab- woohoo! I remember that was what Steve Miller had played back in 1967/8- and he had the two channels jumpered together which leads me to believe that the amp had been rewired! Just his guitar plugged into the amp but with a very bluesy sustain (listen to his songs on the Revolution soundtrack to get an idea). Definitely not the sounds that we associate with a stock Twin Reverb...

[MacLoud]

Enzo

Ouch! very droll indeed....

[gldtp99]

I've never been all that impressed by the 18 watt Marshalls, i know they are very popular-----i serviced up a friend's 20 watt PA head Model 1917 and it seemed better than the 18 watters i've heard/played.
A couple of yrs ago i took a ECL86x2 push-pull, grid leak bias preamp 20 watter amp i'd built over to GC and A/B'd it against the Marshall 18 watters they had there----i wasn't impressed by the big$$$$ factory 18 watters.
I recently built a 20-25 watt 2204-style head with Heyboer 18 watt Marshall trannies, UF4007 rec, Sozo caps, JJ 6V6S outputs, variable NFB pot----filtering is a JJ 40/20/20/20@500V can and an additional 20uF/450V on the board.
Lo end is tight for de-tuned chugging, if desired----the preamp changes from stock 2204 are my favorites from the 50 watt 2204's i've built and add a rich singing quality instead of just over-gaining the signal.
On the Lo input it has a very good clean tone--- probably due to the 6V6S output tubes vs EL34's----with the variable NFB dialed to high levels (NFB loop eliminated) it sounds/responds very much like a small Tweed Fender, which is essentially what the circuit is when plugged into the Lo input jack and the NFB loop eliminated.
On the Hi input, thru a 4x12 cab the amp is easily loud enough to use with a full band-- the variable NFB (at higher levels) pot adds Bandwidth, Volume and has a looser bass response----a matter of personal taste here of how much of this variable NFB pot to dial in----the amp is stable, no oscillation when dimed even with the NFB pot also dimed (no NFB).
I'm building a 15 watt version of this amp with EL84's and a half power switch now----but not using the Heyboer 18 watt Marshall tranny set----using a MPS 190-0-190 PT and a Mohawk 4/8/16 OT from an old commercial amp that ran EL84's----this should be a cool amp, also.
I think these amps are better sounding ideas than the ever-popular 18 watters---- they are also capable of a much wider range of great tones.
I'm sure the 18 watt legion will disagree....................gldtp99

PS--- i've never heard the expression, "Stuck like crap to a blanket" before---- now that's a classic!!!!

[Steve A.]

I've never been all that impressed by the 18 watt Marshalls, i know they are very popular-----
...

PS--- i've never heard the expression, "Stuck like crap to a blanket" before---- now that's a classic!!!!

I had assumed that this discussion was about the various 18 watt clones fine-tuned by the small builders and home builders, not the factory reissues. Whenever you take the time to finetune an amp it usually sounds better than something that came out of a factory. Especially the more basic designs...

"Crap on a blanket"... is that something that they sell at the county fair?

Steve Ahola

[hasserl]

Yeah, I've not been impressed with Marshall's reissue 18 watt 1974X. I don't know where they lost it, but their amps just don't sing with the same lovely tone as several clones I"ve played thru. I would say not to judge the amp circuit based on the Marshall resissue, check out some of the clones.

In any case, different strokes for different folks. If we all liked the same things it'd be pretty boring. If the amps don't cut it for you, that's cool. If they do for others, that's cool too.

[Steve A.]

...In any case, different strokes for different folks. If we all liked the same things it'd be pretty boring...

How true! This *is* a free country and everyone can decide for themselves whether to agree with me or to be wrong...



Steve Ahola

[hasserl]

How true! This *is* a free country and everyone can decide for themselves whether to agree with me or to be wrong...



Steve Ahola

Now you're talking like a politician!

[dcmf]

18 watter...

I personally think that the reason people are thinking that their lil' 18w clones are so great is because these folks usually have either built the kit themselves and think that they have a unique one-of-a-kind amp (and are proud of themselves for making it), or they bought it from someone that makes these near-boutique 18watter, and feel that they have a true rarity. Being proud something you own can have the tendency of making you think it's the best shit ever, when in fact I bet you could take some of the kit builders into a dark room, give them the 'Pepsi Challenge' and they would pick something else over the kit.

Tone is in the ear of the beholder, right? I own a relatively rare Fatboy Chubby amp, as well as a boutique amp -- a 1994 Matchless HC30, and to me, they are amazing sounding amps. Both are true boutique amps. The Fatty is a real real boutique, with under 250 ever made. I don't dig the Marshall 100w tone, or the 18w kits for that matter, but I actually have heard some 18w kits that I prefer over that same Marshall tone that I don't like, for whatever that's worth



dcmf