Flame suit on- what is the deal with 18 watt clones?

[imaradiostar]

I'm gonna go ahead and say it. I've played through a few "good" ones and been entirely not impressed. They sound pretty good but the bass wasn't tight and the high frequencies don't have that gritty compressed sound that I've come to expect from British amps. My cousin is an engineer here in Nashville and he's said the same thing- people come in with them to record fairly often (both vintage and clones) and they're always pretty decent but never amazing. He also said the owners are usually proud as can be and don't wanna believe that they may not be all they're cracked up to be.

The reason I bring it up- I built a normal 4 input Marshall circuit with EL84 outputs about 10 years ago and it's never failed to impress. My baby plexi has a post PI master volume and a lot of metal face marshall part values but it sounds great at almost any setting. I'd say the 18 watt clones I've played sound uninteresting at most settings.

Similar comments apply to the 20 watter I played as well.

What am I missing? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

Has anyone else ever thought this?

jamie

[imaradiostar]

I probably put this in the wrong forum...

[hasserl]

Well, taste IS subjective, they obviously are not your cup of tea. That's cool. I've played several clones, including one I finished the assembly on because the guy that started it had problems and just couldn't get it worked out. That one had the standard non-trem 18 watt circuit on one channel and a TMB version on the other channel, which is probably very similar to your four input amp. IMO the 18 watt circuit has a very sweet charm to it, one of the tastiest tones of any amp. The TMB version is also very nice, like a big Marshall with a turbo but at a bit lower volume; but it doesn't have the charm of the standard 18 watt. The 18 watt circuit relies on power tube distortion, with just one input gain stage into a LTPI there is no preamp distortion. The LTPI gives a smoother less buzzy sound than other vintage style low gain amps that use a split load PI, which is part of the charm IMO. The smooth full tone that turns into a soul full monster as the volume gets cranked, that's the beauty of it.

Both styles have their unique attributes and both are great in different ways.

BTW, I've played a couple of the Marshall re-issue 1974x 18 watt amps, for whatever reason they did not have the same mojo as the clones do. I don't know why not, I don't know if Marshall messed with the circuit or what, but they are nothing special and I went away each time very dissapointed with them. Also, I've seen a ton of posts on different bbs's about output transformer failures on the Marshall reissue, maybe it's their trannies where they loose the tone?

[imo]

Jamie,
I'm personally really curious as to the gist of your EL84
"Marshall". I have been contemplating a similar build. I have a bunch of AC30 style amps, as well as a few Marshalls, and i have always thought the MArshalls to be a bit stiff for what i like in an amp. My playing really responds to the "bloomy" sounds of hot biased 84's.
Did you implement a Marshall frontend, tonestack and all into the 84 power section? Which phase inverter did you use?
Would love your thoughts on it.
Best
Ian

[Jag]

I agree with Hasserl, taste plays a big part in what's good and what's not and it's different for everybody. If they ALL sound unimpressive to you, I would chalk it up to just not being your style. That's not a bad thing.

BTW, don't get me wrong but, an 18 watt Marshall is not the first amp I think of in the context of a Nashville recording.

[Steve A.]

Well, the 18 amp platform is so basic that all of the components must be fine-tuned to get optimum results. What worked really great with one guitar might not work that well with a different guitar...

I was wondering what schematics in particular the 18 watt Marshall builders using.

Thanks

Steve Ahola

P.S. Nashville isn't just country music these days- I can imagine bands of all genres going there to record.

[scole]

jimi vivino uses an 18w

it looks like jimi vivino on conan obrien is using an 18w with what looks like a 212 bottom. if my 18w clone turns out sounding close to his, i will be a happy camper.

[mac1amps]

I think it really shows the typical inconsistancy of Marshalls modern day "mass" production standards. Their numerous "short-cuts", along with the mediocre quality transformers (at best) they're using promote inconsistancy. I'll bet a Mercury (or even a Hammond) O.T. & "choke" upgrade, along with some minor tweeking (like going over the factory soldering if it's made w/ P.C. boards) would make a significant difference.

[imaradiostar]

I've been meaning to reply to this thread for a while- tried to the other day but my palm phone was unable to remain logged in long enough for me to post a message.

I'm sorry if I'm being unfair to the fans of these amps. They're really not terrible- I guess I'm just partial to amplifiers that create a specific tonal change. The cathode follower in a marshall or the pentode in a matchless or even the reverb blend conjuctive filter and extra gain stage in a blackface fender all seem to create a more defined sound. I feel like the 18 watters don't share that signature tone.

I guess it's fair to say they excel at letting things shine through- with less gain stages and less phase shift they somewhat resemble an old hi-fi amp. When I was still in college my rig (at one point) consisted of a Grommes stereo hi-fi amp with two el84's per side. I recall it sounding pretty awesome at higher volumes, especially with pedals. At lower volumes and with clean sounds it was pretty mediocre...this reflects my opinion of the 18 watt circuit.

I've been a little disappointed with the bass response of 18 watt marshall clones. is this normal? I don't expect one to chunk like a Mesa triple rect but a little tighter bottom end would be nice. I feel like fixed bias EL84 amps (my baby plexi, Mesa caliber Dc-2, etc) don't suffer from this as much- maybe it's a cathode bias thing? Perhaps a larger cathode bypass cap would help? Maybe too much bass rolloff in an effort to keep the el84's from getting to flabby?

Whatever the case...I love smallish amps that grind a little at high volume without killing everyone with volume. Maybe this isn't the right amp for me but I'm happy to have some other amps that I really enjoy...

One day soon I should post about my new amp- plexi pre into a single EL34. Every one that's played it thus far really likes it. It's tiny too- only 11" by 5". It sounds mostly like an old marshall- not quite that same midrange rattle from the power section (it's lacking about 4 tubes to generate that) but it sounds pretty neat. It's like a valve junior grew up and now has the balls to drive a 4x12 and emulate a much larger amp at reasonable volume.

Wish I had more time to post here- lots of helpful folks and great knowledge!

jamie

[imaradiostar]

what I also meant to say was...I bet an 18 watter at reasonable volume would be perfect for some Menatone or Runoffgroove pedals! Any comments?

Maybe a pedal design to copy each of your favorite amps into a stereo 18 watt rig...sounds like a lot of fun.

jamie

[BCRGreg]

An 18 watt of high quality into a closed 2x12 cab is quite fun and has plenty of low end.

[Rick Erickson]

I play mine into an Altec 417 12" speaker and it sounds great. It can keep up with my drummer, who has a reputation for being a pounder, as well as a monster technician. A few weeks ago we had former Heart guitarist, Roger Fisher, sit in with us and I set him up with my spare 18W and a 25W Celestion. He comented on what a beautiful tone it got. I have played through the Marshall re-issue and was not impressed at all. Don't know about all the "clones" out there. Mine is a modified version, single channel, one vol, one tone control, selected values of coupling caps...

RE

[OverDriven]

I've never been truly impressed with one either to be honest. I have heard one that I thought sounded very good, but it didn't blow me away. All the rest have sounded average or even kinda "broken" for lack of a better word. Then again, I came up on roaring half stacks cranked to 11 so that's what I like the best.

[Rick Erickson]

Maybe a pedal design to copy each of your favorite amps into a stereo 18 watt rig...sounds like a lot of fun.

I use a couple of TS808 tube screamers for my distortion. I get four different levels of clean to distortion that way. Then into a volume pedal, delays, octave up/down box, and chorus. I can get enough different sounds to play anything from Johnny Cash's "Folsom Prison Blues" to Led Zep's "Rock & Roll" with this setup. And I can play through most any amp and get the same sounds, once the clean tone is dialed in. Simple!

RE

[imaradiostar]

I know I started this mess- sorry to dredge up an old thread but I've been thinking about it and I may try to build a modded version of one of these soon. I've been playing through an amp that's roughly based on a Dr. Z route 66 amp but with different output tubes and no negative feedback. The ef86 into bass/treble circuit has been really usable and works well with jfet amp sim pedals. This leads me to think that the 20 watt circuit would be better for me modded with some sort of bass/treble tone controls- bax style, not fender or marshall style. Not sure if I'd want to use a pentode or triode out front but I wouldn't need the amp to have a huge amount of gain by itself if I'd be using it with pedal distortions.

Anyone out there have any experience with this?

thanks again,

jamie