technical difference between Peavey Classic 30 and Delta Blues

[Jared Purdy]

Hi, With both of these amps coming out of the same factory, with the same cabinetry, aside from the speaker difference, what electronic differernces exit between these two??

Thanks

[Chuck H]

I can't find a convenient schem for the Delta. Based on the "features" they're probably the same circuit but I can't be sure of that. But I might ask, why do you wan't to know? If your wondering which to aquire just get whatever you think sounds best to you. They're about the same price.

Chuck

[Jared Purdy]

thanks

Just curious given the overly zealous dedication that people seem to have to their "brands"".

[Enzo]

The Classic 30 and the Delta BLues circuits are identical...almost. The only difference is that on the Delta, ther is an added little trem circuit. The only alteration to the circuit path is they inserted an LDR for the trem to control and changed a resistor to accommodate that. Away from the signal path is the trem oscillator circuit with its two controls.

The DB has a different larger cab and two speaker options: 2x10 or 1x15. They do sound different for that reason.

None of this is secret, PV is not trying to fool anyone. Not sure how this impacts brand loyalty. Brand loyalty affects all industries.

Here are the two schematics so you may compare.

[Jared Purdy]

thanks..

Indeed, education often gets in the way of learning, and that is coming from a college teacher!

I suspected that was the case with the DB and C30. I recently dove into the electric guitar world, after having tinkered with the accoustic guitar for 30years. I was in need of a new and exciting challege to mark my 50th birthday and my wife obliged my desire. She bought me a Fender American Deluxe Strat (which I chose and is amazing, absolutely perfect IMHO and without flaw), and a Peavey Classic 30 (which I also chose - out of a long list of similarly priced amps), which however, IMHO, is definately not wothout flaw!

I played harmionica in electric blues bands for years, but never gave any real thought to amps as there was never a shortage of them, and I always found that getting a gritty sound with a harp was fairly easy, and not as critical, from an accoustic standpoint, as capturing the true accoutstic properties of an electric guitar, a decidely much more complicated instrument than a 10 hole, diatonic harp.

Amps are complicated, and I came to the discovery, or rather opinion that they are more complicated than the guitar itself. I suspect that is a result of the deluge of them on the market, and the often used misleading marketing techniques that cater to users' overly romantic leanings, with terms such as "Classic 30" , or "Hot Rod Deluxe", "Classic Tweed", etc.

I tried every amp (well, maybe not ALL of them!) in the Toronto area, and I think that after having played music for 37 years, I have a fairly sophisticated ear, though a subjective one like anyone else.

What is a newbie to do? You get the thing home (after much deliberation in the various music stores that have been your second home for the past month), start playing and notice things that you don't like. Not being an electrical engineer, you go on the internet to see what might be the source for your as yet undefined concern, to see what others have to say, and that is where you learn that most people, after plunking down $600-$800 replace the speaker (say what?), and/or embark on replacing the tubes (say what?). And if that is not enough, they attempt somewhat risky, and potentially costly alterations to the (as I have recently learned) extremely flimsy and relatively poorly made circuit boards that really serve as the entire architecture for your "Classic" sound (SAY WHAT!). If that isn't enough (of adding insult to injury), you discover that your "Classic" amp is made from particle board (say what?). That is NOT an easily rectifiable problem.

Having said all of that, I guess in the price range it is a "decent" sounding amp. And to be fair, I lined them up (Marshall Class 5, other Marshalls, HRDx, Blues Junior, Delta Blues, Super Champ XD, Cube 30/80, several Traynor models, various Line 6, Orange, a couple of VOX and others that escape my withering mind. I came to the conclusion that I liked the sound on the clean and OD channels better on the C30 that anything else I heard. The size is perfect (though way too heavy as a result of the NOVO PLY they use), and looks great. I have not done any mods to it, though I am leaning strongly towards replacing the speaker (another daunting task as there are so many out there, and a person can only do one at a time, and they don't let you "try them iout" in store.), and possibly moding the capacitor(s) for the boost switch, so long as nothing untowards happens with the sound on the 1st and "2nd" channels.

Two things, in particular, however, piss me off about this amp (and the same applies to many of the others that I tried): Peavey should not be using such an inferior product as NOVO PLY (fine particulate particle board) in something that they market as "classic" . They should definately be using 3/4" birch ply. I mean, how much more would it cost? Then the word "classic" would have more meaning. Secondly, they should be using higher grade capacitors in the circuit boards. The "ice pick" sound that is produced when the boost switich is engaged renders that function useless. The Blue Guitar web site has detailed instructions on which capacitors to change, and which ones to use to really clean up that signal. But, why should we have to? Honestly, how much more would it cost to do it right?

One look on Anique Electronic Supply's web site, and it becomes pretty clear that if Peavey was to use higher grade capacitors (at a charge of less than$1.00 retail each ), instead of the globs of plastic that they currently use, and were to use 3/4" birch ply instead of 3/4" NOVO PLY, at a retail cost difference of $14 for an 4x8 sheet, I believe that the number of complaints and concerns that seem to surround this amp, as is evidenced all over the web, would be drastically reduced. The prices that I listed are retail to you and me. When Peavey buys this stuff, they are buying by the train load. What would those higher quality upgrades do to the retail cost of a C30, or a DB? Add another $50? I'd gladly pay it knowing that I was a lot closer to "classic" than I am currently, so much so that I am thinking of getting a boutique amp which I know is classic. Just my $.02 worth.

[Enzo]

I appreciate your view, but I think you are being unrealistic.

Picking on them for the name "Classic" is going too far for me. If someone opened up "Classic Lanes Bowling Alley" in your town, would we complain they didn't have actual pin boys setting up the pins?

PV has made amps named "Classic" for decades. It is just a name. it doesn;t imply that the Classic model is somehow a retro product.


Yes, there are web sites like Steve's Blue GUitar with directions on how to "improve" the C30. There is not an amp made that someone hasn't decided they can improve upon by changing parts. But the bottom line is that THOUSANDS of C30s are sold and the buyer is perfectly HAPPY with the amp sitting there stock. Your ice pick sound from your pickups might be just the clarity someone else desires with his pickups. I think Marshall amps are shrill, but other guys like them. We can look at the people coming online to want to tweak their amps, but what we don;t see is the thousands who have no problem. COmplaints and problems are always WAY over-represented on the internet. No one bothers to sign on line, find a forum just to proclaim their amp purchase met their expectations.

Expecting expensive ply in a generic amp like that is asking a bit much too in my view. $50 more is a real deal breaker for many guys, especially if it is just for the box.

[rudutch]

If someone who fixes these things for a living offers a reply, it might be worth your time to appreciate what he says. Just my opinion, you understand

[R ski]

Being a quiet observer at this forum for several years an employed as a skilled technologist I always respected Enzo's views as well as a few select others members of this forum. I never challenged their remarks regarding technical aspects, they are inspiring insights that enlighten me.

So a little research on your question on a brand that being affordable probably in most bedrooms at one time or another kind of makes me wonder what so hard about a purchase decision is your ear really that sophisticated?

[Mark Black]

No, actually, you don't appreciate my view at all. You appreciate your own view and those who espouse it. If you appreciated my view, you would not not be sensoring what I have to say about, of all things, an amplifier. Get a life. We're talking amps here, not life and death. Are you suffering from post amp, traumatic stress dis-order? You are sensoring my post because you don't like the sounds of it? Question Authority.

First of all it's "censoring", and beyond that WTF!!!??

[Enzo]

I responded in his other thread on this.

He mis-understood the auto-response email and went ballistic in response.

[Chuck H]

To get to one of the original discussion points...

The retail mark up for MFG'd stuff, like amps, is 400%. That's right. First the guy building it needs his piece, then the guy selling it needs his piece. So $2.00 becomes $4.00 becomes $8.00. So, if your talking about upgrades that cost the MFG $15.00 that becomes $60.00 to the buying public. Peavey has no reason to upgrade from cheap caps and partical board construction because that's the construction methods used by their competitors. If you want better caps and birch ply cabinets you DO have to get into boutique amps at a much higher price. If this is what the general public wanted the boutique construction techniques might be more common from the bigger MFG's, but it's not. The general public wants a bottom line. (period) To remain competitive, even with the better sounding product, Peavey MUST stay below a certain price margin with certain models. I think they've done a great job and so do many Peavey owners. AND... Just because someone differs in opinion from yours doesn't mean they don't care about yours, it only means they see wisdom in their own considerations and wish to share. It's OK to disagree and it's childish to get $h!tty about it. Nuff bout that.

The Blue Guitar is a fabulous place for Peavey mods. IMHE the speaker is key to getting the most out of those amps. Nearly anything in the Eminence line has an appropriate roll off in the top end to squelch the "ice pick" highs everyone complains about. I just installed a pair of Private Jack's (Eminence Red Coat line) in a friends Classic 50 and it just kills. I had the speakers lying around because I tried them in one of my amps and didn't like them. But they sounded grand in the Peavey so he bought them from me . As I said, I think ALL the Eminence speakers have a kind of boxy rolled off tone. You can go to their website and hear sound clips to get close to what you may want for the rest of the frequency range too. My favorite Eminence speakers are the Legend 1028k and the Legend GB12. You can keep all the speacialty crap. Those two are used a lot for good reason.

JM2C

Chuck

[Steve A.]

If someone who fixes these things for a living offers reply, it might be worth your time to appreciate what he says. Just my opinion, you understand

FWIW I do not believe that anybody in the world knows more about this line of Peavey amps than Enzo- except possibly the designer, James Brown. Enzo is authorized by the factory to service Peavey amps, but is also well versed in the Dark Science of amp mods.

Whenever someone asks me a question that is way over my head (which is not that hard) I refer them to Enzo who usually suggests that they start a thread here so that other people might learn from the exchange.

Steve Ahola

P.S. I bought a Delta Blues 115 the summer before last because I loved how it sounded in the store. I was sure that they had revised the circuitry but Enzo assured me that it is the same design that they have always been using. So I think it is the cabinet and speaker size that is the main difference between the two amps, along with the complement of tubes shipped with the amp. (My DB had JJ's all of the way around while my 1995 C30 had Sovteks.)

Then again I guess my taste in music has changed- I usually just go through the clean channel nowadays and use a pedal if I want some dirt. The idea of having no semi-conductors in the audio signal path is a bunch of hooey, at least when you are talking about production amps. The transistors and IC's in the stomp box do not magically spoil the "tube-osity" of a tube amp.

As for prices and quality of materials/workmanship, the manufacturers like Peavey are usually aiming at a price point which will maximize their profits. I would guess that 90% of the people who buy the C30 or DB are perfectly satisied with the way the amp sounds right out of the box. Perhaps 9% will want to change the speaker and/or tubes. Leaving maybe 1% of the customers crazy enough to take a soldering iron to their amp thus voiding any warranty left on the amp. And it seems like half of those crazy people end up here!

[J M Fahey]

Hi jared.
I guess you don't know the cost pyramid on *any* factory made product.
You seem to believe that a $50 increase in cost translates into a $50 increase in price payed by the customer over the counter.
Nothing further from the truth, in *any* industry.
An average factor may be 8x , such as to turn your $50 into a $400 difference, retail ............... and that hurts.
Now on what seems to irk you most: the "cheap particle board".
Plywood in its various forms is becoming less and less attractive, not only by the visible "price difference" that you quote, which I already told you becomes huge when it reaches the consumer, but because those big trees of yesteryear , easily available in the 50's, are all gone now.
New trees, even quick growth ones, are smaller diameter; "shaving" them to provide the basic thin sheet to make plywood provides much smaller sheets, more voids appear, the works.
You have less choice, woodworking becomes more complicated, plywood splits, you have more rejects, you have to sand it a lot.
Construction users, who have traditionally been heavy plywood buyers, had to accept much rougher plywood, OSB, and even "water proof chipboard".
Compare it to the new, improved , particle board materials: they have very fine grain, can come in any size, and have two huge advantages:can be made with new "any size" trees, but most important: being homogeneous and fine grain, can be cut, shaped and finished with automated, high production equipment.
That makes it possible for you to buy an excellent, very well made and sounding amplifier for 600 to 800 U$S retail.
Of course if you want a traditionally made one, you can pay U$S 3200, 3500 or more for a boutique amp.
Those prices allow "real plywood", "real tweed", alnico speakers, cloth covered wire, paper in oil caps, NOS tubes, the whole magic.
PS: I got into this thread thinking you were speaking about something *technical* .

[Jared Purdy]

Oopps, my bad...

Yes you are right ,I did misunderstand the "auto reply" at the end of Enzo's reply to me. It just looked odd that it wasn't showing up on any other posts. I mistook it for control. Sorry, Enzo (and to anyone else that was offended) a cooler head will prevail.

I asked basically the same question on another site and a couple of respondents went ballistic on me. They were acting like Peavey Nazis! Seriously, it was obsurd.

Back to the original point, and I appreciate everyone's feedback. Personally, I would gladly pay an extra $60-$100 for a cabinet that is made from 3/4 birch ply, and better capacitors, providing they were in the right place. There are probably capacitors that are not so critical, but the tone stack, as well as the boost switch, I believe are important. Now, I don't have such a problem with the tone of the 1st and "2nd"channel as they are. In fact, I don't really hear what the fuss is about, most people, including myself, go on at length about the great tone, particulalry on the first channel. Then again, I have never heard a modded C30 with the tone stack changed with different capacitors of different valuances.

However, I do agree that there is a serious problem with the tone once the boost switch is engaged. I called a local service place here in Toronto and they told me that parts and labour to do the boost switch capacitor upgrade (and maybe one or two others) would be around $100, and it would take 2-3 weeks (they're very busy!). The time alone, never mind the money would make me want to give that extra $$$ directly to Peavey at the point of purchase. $100 is a lot for one capacitor! Particulalry given the fact that the retail for one is about $1.00! If Peavey buys 50,000 of them they likely be paying pennies for them.

And yes, I do understand that $.05 at the beginning turns to $.50, or there abouts by the time it reaches you and me. I would love to hear from someone (Enzo? or Peavey?) what the actual cost to the consumer would be if they were to use real 3/4" birch ply and better capacitors (with a better valuance) (we are only talking about at the most. 8-10 caps, no? And personally, as I said earlier, for me its really just about the cab and the boost switch).

Once again, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Regards.

[David Schwab]

PV has made amps named "Classic" for decades. It is just a name. it doesn;t imply that the Classic model is somehow a retro product.

Right, the word "classic" does not mean retro.

Traditionally, classic means "typical, excellent as an example, timeless".

So this is a classic Peavey amp, more-or-less like they have been making for quite a while.

Regarding their speakers, a friend of mine has several old Peavey combos, and some of them are way too dark sounding. Some of the newer ones sound too hard in the mids, probably because that replaceable basket is too heavy.