technical difference between Peavey Classic 30 and Delta Blues

[Jared Purdy]

I'm no techie!

Well, I'm definately not a techie. Hell, I've only been into this game since Dec 25th! However, like anyone, I know what I like. And, I definately will not be taking a soldering iron to my amp, I will leave that for the experienced.

I asked these guys (superfuzzaudio.com) if custmers are satisfied once they get the mods done(he admitted that he's never modded a C30, but lots of Fenders). He was a bit evasive, but said that some are, some are not, and for those who are not, it turns into a yoyo with the amp. Doing one (upgrade), he said, if it can be clearly identified as being a problem, is easy, and not such a bad idea, particularly if he knows that the problem will be eliminated once the capacitor is changed.

He said simultaneous, multiple upgrades are risky.

As for my beef with particle board, well I have worked with it a bit, and don't like it as a material to work with. Once its put together, I guess that you could say that it is solid enough. However, accoustically, while great for stereo, closed speaker cabinets, it has poor resonating properties, compared to other woods, like pine, maple (obviously very expensive), and well, high quality particle board.

[hasserl]

Re cheap/upgraded capacitors. IME the cost of the capacitor makes no difference in "improvement" of sound. There is no problem with Peavey, or any other mfgr for that matter, using "globs of plastic" capacitors in their amps. What may be a problem, for some people, is the actual VALUE of those capacitors. Simply replacing the stock caps with caps of a different brand or type will net very little difference it any at all. Those that claim such a change will net "huge" improvements in tone, or cure an "icepick" situation are charlatans at best. However, changing the capacitance value will effect real change in tone and response. When shopping for someone to perform modifications for you my advice is to ask questions about that, the guy that spouts brand name caps, stay away from him. The guy that talks about changing the value of the caps to achieve the desired effects, but is not particular enamored of any particular name brands, or particular type, such as paper-in-oil, that's the guy you want to deal with. That's the guy with an ear and with a proper understanding of how to tweak circuits.

[Jared Purdy]

capacitor upgrades.....

Thanks for your advise. Yes, you are right, this is not a brand name change exersize, it is a valuance change. Part of this learning curve involves me learning the terminology. I was under impression that not all capacitors are created equally, though I may be mistaken on that. However, I am aware that it is te value that is what is imporant. The Blue Guitar web site has a very insightful article regarding the changes, and the values associated with each capacitor. Obviously, it could be a real crap shoot if you didn't know what a value change would net you, or if there would be a csascade effect on other channels and tones (BTM). That is one of the reasons I would not attempt this myself.

When I spoke to the staff at a shop here in Toronto, they definately knew what I was talking about with regard to the "trill" sound (as he referred to it) and knew what values would produce a more tolerable/useable sound. I am going to get it done, as the way the boost switch is, its not going to get used, and I don't want to buy a pedal when the amp already has it built in. I don't know when I'm going to do it, as 2-3 weeks is a long time.

[Jared Purdy]

"AND... Just because someone differs in opinion from yours doesn't mean they don't care about yours, it only means they see wisdom in their own considerations and wish to share. It's OK to disagree and it's childish to get $h!tty about it. Nuff bout that."

Yes, you are right. I mistook something that was in Enzo's message. It wasn't what he was saying about my opinion that bothered me, it was some auto generated message at the end of his reply, stating something to the effect that I would not be getting ay more replies. I thought that he wrote it, and thought it was because I said somethng against "house rules", thats what sent me off. I apologized to him (and anyone esle who was offended).

"As I said, I think ALL the Eminence speakers have a kind of boxy rolled off tone. You can go to their website and hear sound clips to get close to what you may want for the rest of the frequency range too. My favorite Eminence speakers are the Legend 1028k and the Legend GB12. You can keep all the speacialty crap. Those two are used a lot for good reason."

JM2C

Chuck[/QUOTE]

I was under the impression that the original C30 speaker was made by Eminence, though 'm not sure what model it was, and then Peavey (for a reason that I am not privy to), started either making it them selves, or had them made by another manufacturer. Am I on on the right path here? I am leaning towards a Weber Blue Dog (ceramic), though still not quite ready. I'd really love to here a C30 that has had a speaker switch next to a C30 that has the Blue Marvel in it. I've looked on youtube, but nothing.

[Jared Purdy]

I responded in his other thread on this.

He mis-understood the auto-response email and went ballistic in response.

Yes,Enzo, my mistake. I posted a reply earlier today outlining the error of my ways. I did not realize it was auto-generated. I thought that you wrote it because you didn't like something that I had written (from my limited experience with amps and electric guitars, people on these web sights take their amps, in this case, VERY personally and seriously). I apologize for the offence.

Also, I did not realize that you are an authorized Peavey tech. Now that I know that, can I assume that you have done speaker changes to the C30? How about changing the capacitance of the boost switch, and if so what did you change it to so as to get rid of the trill/ice pick sound??

Once again Enzo, my apologies.

Regards, Jared Purdy

[Jared Purdy]

If someone who fixes these things for a living offers a reply, it might be worth your time to appreciate what he says. Just my opinion, you understand

I was not aware until you wrote that that he did this for a living, nor did I know that he was a authorized Peavey tech! Now that I know that, I have some questions posted for him, which I hope he answers!

[hasserl]

I was under impression that not all capacitors are created equally, though I may be mistaken on that.

No, you are not mistaken, there are many diffeent types of capacitors, and many different contruction methods and brands each with their own way of making them. However, the effect on tone due to these differences tends to be greatly overstated by folks for different reasons. Sometimes it's marketing, because they are selling caps and they are looking for a competitive edge; sometimes it's because someone wants to believe they've found something special that no one else has, they want to be the first to tell others about it, or they want to feel special amongst their peers that they are in the know about these special caps, or perhaps they've compared caps in a certain application and they truly believe there is a measurable difference in effect with certain caps that is beneficial for their application, There are probably as many different reasons as there are people. My point is that any effect between two capacitors of equal capaticance but of different material or construction methods, is very subtle and is easily overshadowed by many other things, and whether the difference is an improvement or not is absolutely subjective anyway. Don't be misled by internet myths about special powers from particular brands of capacitor, in fact, when you see that run away as fast as you can.

[Jared Purdy]

Being a quiet observer at this forum for several years an employed as a skilled technologist I always respected Enzo's views as well as a few select others members of this forum. I never challenged their remarks regarding technical aspects, they are inspiring insights that enlighten me.

So a little research on your question on a brand that being affordable probably in most bedrooms at one time or another kind of makes me wonder what so hard about a purchase decision is your ear really that sophisticated?

And I am not challenging their's either, that is why I hold up the relevance of the info on blueguitar. As for Enzo, I did not know he did this for a living (I just joinded this site), and as a Peavey tech!

As for the research on the amp front, well, I'm not sure how sophisticed my ear is. I played accoustic guitar for 30 years, and I can certainly tell the difference in the quality of the sound that is produced by a Manzer, Wren, Martin, Gibson, etc., vs a much cheaper mass produced instrument. I can also hear the difference in the sound the pick-ups generate on my American deluxe Strat vs my daughter's made in Mexico Strat.

All things being equal (in price - more or less - wattage, features, build, the decision to purchase one over the other is really quite subjective. I was able to put quite a number of amps right beside each other (Steve's Music is great for that kind of service) and using the same guitar, plug each one in right after the other and make an on the spot comparison. I can still hear the sounds most of them make. I found the Marshall Class 5 (hand wired) very muffled, a great lack of treble and midrange, even when it was adjusted (my 13 year old daughter said that it sounded like it was under water). I found the HRDx, Blues Junior to be boxy and hollow sounding. I found the same of the Princeton.

In the end, I picked the C30 because I thought that it had a better sound over-all, I liked the cabinet size (and the fake tweed covering - which is vastly easier to clean than real tweed), and I liked all of the features on it. If I had known that the cabinet was made from particle board that would not have affected my decision, and I certainly don't have any regrets about the purchase. However, I get the impression from the varoius responces that I have had, (and I have been totally flamed for this on another site) that respondents think that I am totally unhappy with this amp (one person insinuated that I was saying it was "crap" when I had never used any term as harsh as that to describe one or two things about it that I didn't like.).

As for whether or not its a "bedroom" amp, well, I guess that too is a matter of opinion. I play it at 1 (on the volume scale) when its late, and it doesn't sound anything like it does when it is much happier at 3, 4 or 5! A Roland 15 or some other well made ss amp is probably more suited to the "bedroom" or other places when loved ones are trying to sleep, at least if you don't want to compromise the sound by turning down the volume. Or, you could go and spend $1500-$2500 on a boutique and get them to put an attenuator put in ;-)
My $.02 worth. But thanks for your feedback. JP

[Jared Purdy]

its not about the capacitor!

No, you are not mistaken, there are many diffeent types of capacitors, and many different contruction methods and brands each with their own way of making them. However, the effect on tone due to these differences tends to be greatly overstated by folks for different reasons. Sometimes it's marketing, because they are selling caps and they are looking for a competitive edge; sometimes it's because someone wants to believe they've found something special that no one else has, they want to be the first to tell others about it, or they want to feel special amongst their peers that they are in the know about these special caps, or perhaps they've compared caps in a certain application and they truly believe there is a measurable difference in effect with certain caps that is beneficial for their application, There are probably as many different reasons as there are people. My point is that any effect between two capacitors of equal capaticance but of different material or construction methods, is very subtle and is easily overshadowed by many other things, and whether the difference is an improvement or not is absolutely subjective anyway. Don't be misled by internet myths about special powers from particular brands of capacitor, in fact, when you see that run away as fast as you can.

I beleive that Lance Armstrong said something to the effect, "Its not about the bike, stupid"!

Yes, I realize that. I could care less if a glob of plasitc did it right (got the valuance right). Its function over form!

[Enzo]

OK, enough about me, we can move on.

SO many little issues here.

The speaker. Eminence made/makes the stock C30 speaker. The BLue Marvel label does not mean PV started making them. That is just their house brand for any speaker they did not make themselves. The one for the C30 may be similar to existing Eminence models, but it is not an off the shelf one from the catalog. PV uses a lot of EMinence speakers. MAny have changed their speakers, and you will find many different models recommended by various folks. You can try other speakers in your amp, or connect them up in extension cabs. The C30 is especially happy with an extension cab. A nice 2x12 is my fave.

GUys change their speakers all the time, on just about every make and model made. It is a time honored tweak fetish musicians seem to have.


Plywood. OK, you as an individual would pay $100 more for it. FIne. But if they added that cost, really now, how large a sales increase could they expect? Very few people are even aware of the wood as a factor in amps, and the added price would definitely scare more folks away. PV is selling amps, not idiologies, so if making this change doesn;t increase the bottom line, why would they do it?

The boost button. Have you tried it with both humbuckers and with single coils? The mod articles suggest changes, and lots of guys like them. But thousands of guys like it the way it is. COnsider also how it is used. In your room, you are going for tone, youo want it to sound JUST SO. But on stage, it is more a matter of cutting through. The point of hte button is when in the context of a stage full of band, your sound comes out a little more audible when the boost is on. Ever hear someone scoop all his mids out for that scooped tone, then complain that he can't hear himself over the band? Well of course he can;t, he scooped all the body from his tine. TO be heard, he needs to dial some of those mids back in - the very mids he didn;t want - so the sound has some body. SO the boost button is more a be-heard-better button than a swell tone setting.

Of course you can mod the amp and make it whatever you want, but you should be aware what the design process looks at too.

As to selecting cap values, the amp designers selected the value to sound like they wanted it to sound. The parts were not chosen at random, they designed what they designed. You or I or anyone else is free to prefer something different, but if you made those changes and put the amp on the market, then there would be lots of people suggesting we change it back to stock.

How do you decide which personal taste is the correct one? How do we decide which caps are wrong? And all that is assuming the same pickups are used. That Les Paul and the Tele are going to sound a whoile lot different through that amp. What pickup should we have in mind when we design an amp?

I am all in favor of people fiddling with their amps to get them to sound the way they want. I just am cautious about projecting that back on the manufacturer.

[Jared Purdy]

alterations

OK, enough about me, we can move on.

SO many little issues here.

The speaker. Eminence made/makes the stock C30 speaker. The BLue Marvel label does not mean PV started making them. That is just their house brand for any speaker they did not make themselves. The one for the C30 may be similar to existing Eminence models, but it is not an off the shelf one from the catalog. PV uses a lot of EMinence speakers. MAny have changed their speakers, and you will find many different models recommended by various folks. You can try other speakers in your amp, or connect them up in extension cabs. The C30 is especially happy with an extension cab. A nice 2x12 is my fave.

GUys change their speakers all the time, on just about every make and model made. It is a time honored tweak fetish musicians seem to have.


Plywood. OK, you as an individual would pay $100 more for it. FIne. But if they added that cost, really now, how large a sales increase could they expect? Very few people are even aware of the wood as a factor in amps, and the added price would definitely scare more folks away. PV is selling amps, not idiologies, so if making this change doesn;t increase the bottom line, why would they do it?

The boost button. Have you tried it with both humbuckers and with single coils? The mod articles suggest changes, and lots of guys like them. But thousands of guys like it the way it is. COnsider also how it is used. In your room, you are going for tone, youo want it to sound JUST SO. But on stage, it is more a matter of cutting through. The point of hte button is when in the context of a stage full of band, your sound comes out a little more audible when the boost is on. Ever hear someone scoop all his mids out for that scooped tone, then complain that he can't hear himself over the band? Well of course he can;t, he scooped all the body from his tine. TO be heard, he needs to dial some of those mids back in - the very mids he didn;t want - so the sound has some body. SO the boost button is more a be-heard-better button than a swell tone setting.

Of course you can mod the amp and make it whatever you want, but you should be aware what the design process looks at too.

As to selecting cap values, the amp designers selected the value to sound like they wanted it to sound. The parts were not chosen at random, they designed what they designed. You or I or anyone else is free to prefer something different, but if you made those changes and put the amp on the market, then there would be lots of people suggesting we change it back to stock.

How do you decide which personal taste is the correct one? How do we decide which caps are wrong? And all that is assuming the same pickups are used. That Les Paul and the Tele are going to sound a whoile lot different through that amp. What pickup should we have in mind when we design an amp?

I am all in favor of people fiddling with their amps to get them to sound the way they want. I just am cautious about projecting that back on the manufacturer.

Well said Enzo, thanks. I can't honestly say if I have gone through all of the pick up settings with/out the s-1 switch (I use a Strat deluxe) to hear what the boost sounds like on each one. I will do that tonite! As I said ealier, overall, I am quite happy with the amp. During the selection process, it would have been great if I had someone there with a camcorder so as to play back the comparisons between the C30 and a lot of other brands. I was quite content to let things sit, until I opened Pandora's box by checking out reviews on the various sites, and that is where you learn about speaker swap, something I had not condsidered, and more significantly, the capacitor mods as mentioned on blueguitar. I am not going to be rushing into anything as the amp is still young (Dec 25) so it is barley broken in. However, I would like to hear what another speaker sounds like in there as that, as you point out seems to be routine. I realize that not all speakers are going to be the same (in the cabinet), and that some are of a higher quality than others. In your experience, and I gather that you have a fair amount in this field, do you find that there is a model of speaker that "improves" the tone better than others? From the Eminence web site, they seem to have quite a range in 16 ohms. I have also looked at Weber and celestion, mostlyu because they seem to get a lot of support/press on the web. Thanks for your time.

[Enzo]

Reviews should be taken with a grain of salt. ANy number of times we have someone come on a forum like this and say, "I just ordered a brand new Model XYZ amp. What mods should I do when it comes." Seems to me one ought to at least listen to their new amp before changing it. You wil ALWAYS find someone online with a plan to make some amp "better." DOn;t take it as gospel.

[Steve A.]

No, you are not mistaken, there are many different types of capacitors, and many different construction methods and brands each with their own way of making them. However, the effect on tone due to these differences tends to be greatly overstated by folks for different reasons. Sometimes it's marketing, because they are selling caps and they are looking for a competitive edge; sometimes it's because someone wants to believe they've found something special that no one else has, they want to be the first to tell others about it, or they want to feel special amongst their peers that they are in the know about these special caps, or perhaps they've compared caps in a certain application and they truly believe there is a measurable difference in effect with certain caps that is beneficial for their application, There are probably as many different reasons as there are people. My point is that any effect between two capacitors of equal capaticance but of different material or construction methods, is very subtle and is easily overshadowed by many other things, and whether the difference is an improvement or not is absolutely subjective anyway. Don't be misled by internet myths about special powers from particular brands of capacitor, in fact, when you see that run away as fast as you can.

Hey, I resemble that remark! 12 years ago I was very impressed with the polyester Orange Drop caps- they sure sounded better than the "little greenies" mylar caps sold by the local electronics parts house. Since then I have found that other polyester film and foil capacitors usually work just as well (like the Mallory 150's and any of the decent caps at Mouser).

To my ears there is a definite difference between polyester and polypropylene caps, the latter being a bit brighter and more brash (not necessarily bad traits in a amp- a few of them placed in critical points can clean up an amp that is too muddy).

I've done a lot of experiments as a hobbyist. At one point I replaced all of the tone caps and coupling caps in my C30 with polyester Orange Drops and it was very interesting; there was hardly any brightness at all but the sound was very solid, like each note was a step carved out of granite (I would have loved to keep one C30 setup that way!)

Replacing the ceramic treble with mica makes a very big difference in sound to me- I hear more solid highs with less of the papery sound I hear from ceramics. (Yes I do tend to use very subjective terms to describe sounds).

BTW in my revised C30 mod schematic from 1999, I changed the slope resistor of the tone stack from 68k to 56k (which will boost the lows and mids and cut the highs a little bit) and also replaced the 270pF ceramic treble cap with a 330pF mica cap along with replacing the two little gobs used for the bass and mid caps.

As for all of these alleged differences I hear it boils down to me looking for a very specific sound and response from my C30, and certain mods brought me closer to that goal while other mods didn't. Perhaps a listener could not tell the difference, but I could since I knew what I was looking for.


Getting back to what you said of the value of the cap being more important than the particular type of cap used, I agree with you in regards to the typical high gain multi-channel amp built today. For example, in a Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier or a Soldano SLO 100 I doubt if you could hear the difference if you were to change a few of caps while keeping the same value. With amps like that, the complex circuitry trumps the type of components used.

However when you look at the simpler amps, like the Fender Tweed and Blackface designs, I have found that the composition of the coupling and tone caps is very important. During the blackface and silverface era they used a lot of different types of caps, some of which sounded much better than others. With amps like these the circuitry is very simple so I believe that it makes component choice more critical.

One other point about Orange Drop caps: because of their size they can contribute to parasitic coupling in an amp. The parasitic coupling can give either positive or negative feedback to the circuit depending on which components are "talking" to each other. You can lessen this effect by connecting the outer foil lead* to the point closest to ground; reversing the leads on an Orange Drop cap can make a very noticeable difference in sound and response. (Sometimes I like the lively response when I have hooked the Orange Drop up backwards.)

The parasitic coupling can cause all sorts of bad effects in a high gain amp, but it can liven up or mellow a simpler, more traditional amp.

One other point about caps is that there are other measurable parameters besides capacitance, like ESR. And it seems to me that a mica cap will pass more signal that a ceramic cap of the same value, but with less brightness/harshness that can contribute to an ice-picky sound.

Thanks!

Steve Ahola

P.S. You might say that I am more interested in the metaphysics of a guitar amp than the technical electronic principles involved.

P.P.S. Changing the subject a bit, a lot of people have been very happy putting a Celestion Vintage 30 in their Classic 30 amp, with or without doing any other changes. It is possible that James Brown designed the amp figuring that tone freaks would replace the stock speaker with a Vintage 30.

* With the Orange Drop caps I have it is very easy to figure out which lead goes to the outer foil and which goes to the inside just by studying the patterns on the outside. With Mallory 150's I think that you would have to make up a rig to determine which lead corresponds to the outer lead (I did this with Orange Drops by connecting the hot lead from a guitar cable to first one and then the other lead and the one that hummed louder was the outer foil.)

[Glass Snuff]

Don't be afraid to let your Blue Marvel break in before you judge it too harshly (pun intended). IMO, it's a very good copy of a Celestion Blue, and works very well with the C30's output stage.

I think you made a good choice. I use a C30 in the store to sell all sorts of high end guitars because it makes them all sound good. Sure, you can mod any amp to sound better with the guitar you have, but someday you might buy another guitar. I mod almost everything I own, but interestingly, my C30 remains stock. Don't let a bunch of internet chest pounders (and I don't mean Steve A) make you feel you need to change things.

Oh, and that boost switch? Not everyone wants to sound like EVH, but it sure puts a smile on the face of kids trying to play "Eruption".

[Jared Purdy]

I have a confession...

After reading the numerous responces to my numerous questions and ponderings, and taking some of the advice to heart, I think that I will be leaving the circuit board alone (including the boost switch). About the only thing that I could possibly see doing would be to alter the boost switch so that a pedal can be used on it, as described by Steve Alhoa. That would be a non-evasive, practicle and justifiable modification.

Enzo, Steve Aloha, some guy named "Cincy" on the Peavey forum and one or two other people all had great advise, that ultimately had an influence on my thinking. You are absolutely right Enzo, Peavey did not just reach into a box and grab a hand full of capacitors and say, "put these in" All of the valuances are purposely thought out.

I'm not sure what the C30 would sound like with a standard Strat, or a Gibson,or any other guitar, but the American Deluxe Strat, which is what I have, there is an incredible array of tones with the s-1 switch, double the normal amount on a Standard. After fiddling with the tone control on the amp (turning down the treble to about 5, mid range at 9, bass at 12) the boost switch sung. There was less trill at those setting on the OD channel than on the clean channel, but in either case, the trill is totally controlable.

Because I am such as newbie with amps, I believe I put too much currency into what so many other people were saying without relying on my own judgement and taste ( I shoudl klnow this as I am an avid cyclist and the same thing happens on cycling forums). I don't doubt that Peavey could make a "better" circuit board, i.e, more robust. However, that does not necessarily mean that the robustness would translate into a better sound, thereby justifying the price increase they would have to charge. For example, I found the 5 watt Marshall class 5, which is hand wired, to be quite frankly, competely lack lustre, given all the hype about hand wired. Though I'm sure there are others who think its the cat's meow.

I would still like to see Peavey issue the C30 in 3/4" baltic birch ply, or even offer a special, limited edition run of C30s with solid wood cabs! Whether or not I change the speaker remains to be seen. I think that I would have to hear the C30 beside another C30, or similarly design amp before I would go and plunk down $150-$200 on a good speaker. For that much money, and the time and effort to put it in, there has to be an appreciatable difference. I've appreciated all of your comments. It's time to get down to business, and play the blues, and stop talking about them!
Regards, Jared Purdy