Mercury Magnetics - The Emperor's New Clothes?

[Bruce Gerard]

Hi folks,

This is my 1st post here. I had a little time to kill this evening, so I thought I'd pose a question to the members here.

I've been a professional musical electronics tech since the late 80s, I serve a number of music stores in the city where I live. I've been a certified tech for Fender and many other makers since the 90s. Tube gear is how I got my start, and of course, it's still my favorite stuff to work on & play through.

Rencently (past year or two) I've had more & more customers rave about the awesome iron being put out by Mercury Magnetics. When I press them about the claim, most admit that they have never actually owned an amp that was "upgraded" to a Mercury product. I recently tuned up a Deluxe Reverb ('65 Blk Face) that had the power X replaced with a MM unit. Frankly, after a fresh set af tubes & bias, it sounded to me like a stock 65 Deluxe. I checked the voltages & they were within 10% of spec. Cust claims a "huge" change in tone. I didn't hear it, & I'm fairly critical.

I've looked at their website, and I'm surprised at the high prices they are getting. They are very proud of their products. I've built amps with Hammond, UTC, Thordarson, Triad, Partridge, and Stancore over the years - some new, some NOS, some used. By far - Hammond is the one I've used most for customers, because of price and availibility.

So my question is this: Are the MM products really better than other quality Iron offered by the other major makers? Has anyone done a dead on back to back to A/B the MM with other makers? I'm honestly curious. I'm not here to debunk MM. If they truly do offer a tangible improvement that is worth the high price tag, I may start suggesting them to select customers as a replacement option.

Thanks, & excuse the long post.

BG

[Chuck H]

MM Makes great transformers...

So does Heyboer, Hammond, MCI, etc.

Guys over at the Amp Garage use Pacific transformers for their Trainwreck builds because Ken Fischer used them. Ken Fischer also used Stancore and Heyboer iron. He never used MM iron. Trainwreck amps are some of the most expensive and revered boutique guitar amps I know of.

MM has some really nice options that enhance amplifier performance. More offered to the public than other MFG's so lots of upgrade options for homebrews and boutique builders. Probably the best looking transformers you can buy too. Are they better than anyone elses???

No, not really. Transformer technology such as it is doesn't seem to hold many secrets for the experienced magnetic companies. Many have reverse engineered revered "Marshall" or "Fender" iron at one time or another or at least have records of such trannies that they've built for someone. So you can go to Heyboer and ask them to make you a Marshall Plexi OT with a "fat stack" and they'll do it. In fact they'll do it custom for you and still charge you less than you'll pay for the MM product.

MM spends more than any other magnetic company advertising in musician oriented publications. They're probably better known to the lay-tone snob than any other transformer MFG. This is just hype and they do it very well. I guess it costs a lot to do all that advertising and promotion because their prices are about double what any other makers product costs and it's all made from the same stuff with comparable expertise. Now, in fairness it costs more to make them so pretty and then bring them to public attention so they should charge more. And they're enjoying the buzz they've created now as the first magnetics "shop" to step out of the warehouse and into the public eye. As information technologies made players aware that old iron sounded better than new iron attentions turned to more saavy magnetics shops. Mercury struck while the iron was hot. Others are stepping up now but MM already has the market. So, they do offer a dandy product but you'll pay waaaay too much for it considering that most other options are just as good, if not as pretty or well known by low tech musicians who fancy themselves tone snobs. In this regard using MM iron is just so much cork sniffing. Like the guys who put $30.00 cryogenically treated beeswax caps on their guitars tone pot and swear it never sounded so good. But...

Give 'em what they want. If a customer asks for MM iron you can tell them once "it will cost twice as much and won't sound any better." If they balk at all just charge them what it costs and use the MM iron. Most tone snobs with starry eyes and an idea in their head would hear a difference whether it were there or not, Even if the MM iron didn't sound as good they might still cock their head, listen and choose the MM iron believing that it's what they need so they shouldn't sway. Best not to try and educate non technical people about it because you will end up being the one who loses credibility, not Mercury. MM is the premier boutique iron maker because of posturing and nothing more.

And FWIW I can't imagine changing a PT would make a remarkable difference in tone unless the original were grossly bad. Some amps derive their characteristic sound from an undersized PT adding to the "sag" envalope. Some players may want to tighten things up so a bigger PT might be nice. But most amps are made with an appropriate PT in which case hearing a difference with an "upgrade" PT is like saying caviar tastes better served with a mother of pearl spoon than a plastic one. Of course ther is no difference. But again, don't try and tell a tone snob he's wrong. When you argue with a fool about something most people aren't educated about people watching won't be able to tell who the fool is.

JM2C, Rant over.

[trevorus]

No real experience here, either, but I assumed it was a lot of marketing and such with the MM stuff, as it is with Monster stuff as well. I used a Weber xfrmr in a friend's Epi Valve Junior, and got the desired effect with a 15 watt rated one over the stock, and admittedly mismatched stock one. All for 35 bucks, I can't complain a bit!

[redelephant]

No MM experience here either, but cannot imagine the difference being so big on musical instruments. I know for wide bandwidth and minimal distortion u pretty much get what u pay for and that may be an issue in HiFi amps. But the limited bandwidth of individual instruments tells me the difference cannot be huge.
How 'bout some of those hand wound Japanese units with silver wire? The prices have three digit numbers, and they actually have a market.

[MWJB]

I have used a couple of MM transformers, but not because they were MM specifically, but because they had useful features like alternative secondary taps on the OT, or the right voltage B+ secondary for what I was aiming to build. They are fine, but pricey (especially including shipping & duty to UK)...I agree 100% with what Chuck posts above.

As regards the Deluxe Reverb, it's got pretty bulletproof transformers anyway, the only possible advantage that I can think of is that the MM could have "schematic correct" B+ voltages under load, rather than the higher voltages seen in genuine Fenders...but this only allows the use of lower voltage handling & NOS 6V6s at slightly cooler currents that you typically get - a moot point if using higher voltage current production, or upgrading to 5881/6L6. But that's not unique to MM, Mojotone's BF Deluxe PT (Hyboer?) does the same. So if the amp now runs at 415-420vdc at 25mA per tube, as opposed to 435-440vdc, that's a difference that you would hear, even if if not typical for that model.

The thing that sticks in my craw is the phrase "Tone Clone", if it's different, it's not a clone...but if it does the job & you go in eyes open regarding the price, then you should be happy enough....Oh, and one more thing, their habit of quoting "unloaded" B+ voltages is confusing, especially as some are quoted as "unloaded", some "loaded" & some not specified regarding load...but that's all....for now anyway....

[Bruce Gerard]

Thanks guys - that answers what I was thinking. Chuck, loved your rant! I cracked up because I've said the same sort of thing to the owners of the stores that I do tech work for. Tone snobs... Some of the most extensive repairs that I've done in a long time have recently come from a tone snob that thought he knew how to mod a Vox after " reading how to do it online".. I told the guy he should practice on a junker amp, or do a breadboard - unless of course, he wants to keep spending money for me to fix. Of course, he didn't like that. I actually got some anti-tampering seals & put them on the chassis so I could see if he has messed with it, in case he brings it back in, "not working again"

"Unloaded B+" That's like saying how fast a car can go in neutral.

BG

[Tom Phillips]

The marketeers at MM really wrote some deep Bull Stuff. MM built a good business and has successfully tapped into the musical instrument market. I would use their transformers if I didn't have to pay the add on for the hype. I have seen many examples that had been installed in amps that came through my shop. The product is good but not better than that produced by several other reputable manufacturers. I wish I had all the good original transformers that were scrapped in order to "upgrade" to MM iron. It's really funny to read a newbie post talking about upgrading to MM transformers even before the new amp he just bought on eBay arrives at his doorstep.
Cheers,
Tom

[GregS]

Hopefully I didn't miss something reading the thread that's already been stated, but it seems to me the advantage of MM transformers is that they make clones of the vintage originals that are supposedly exactly the same in spec. So, if someone needs a replacement transformer for a mid-sixties Fender, for example, they can get an exact replica - or if someone wants to build a clone of a vintage amp as accurately to spec as possible..... I don't know if other manufacturers make clones.

Greg

[MWJB]

Greg, they call them "clones" but they are usually different (plastic bobbins & 25% overrrated OT's, different B+ on PTs) to the transformers actually found in the vintage amps...doesn't mean that they are bad, just that the term "clone" is misleading in the MM hyperbole.

Me, I think the term "clone" is massivley overused & misinterpreted...what we usually mean is facsimile.

[Alex R]

Me, I think the term "clone" is massivley overused & misinterpreted...what we usually mean is facsimile.

...which is not so far away in meaning from 'replacement part'.

Yes I have been 'corrected' by reference to some overheated forum or other more times than is good for my blood pressure. MM is a brand, whilst transformers are transformers. Check the spec and forget the label is a good rule where replacement parts are concerned.

[Chuck H]

There was one poster here, Daz, who we don't hear from anymore. If he's lucky he just started playing his guitar and forgot about tweaking his amp for awhile. He was VERY particular. Swapping part values back and forth, listening, scrutinizing and most important he was building some unconventional circuits to get the tone he was after. No regard for vintage correct this or that. He heard the ideal vintage Marshall SOUND in his head and by God he was going to get it. I think he tried three or four different output transformers. One was the MM Tone Clone. He REALLY didn't like that one. Said it made the amp sound middy in a bad way, like nasally and stifled. IIRC he ended up liking the new Hammond guitar amp line Marshall OT the best. Great news for the "cloners" out there since this has to be the most affordable one on the market.

Again, this isn't to say that MM iron is bad. It's good stuff. But not better and not any closer to vintage correct than anything else. But as I said, Mercury spends a lot of money to build their reputation. You would have to spend at least an equal amount tearing it down before you should debate mojo with a tone snob. Best to just sell 'em some paper in oil caps and send 'em on their way "knowing" their gear sounds better than anyone elses.

[Enzo]

Hi Bruce, welcome to the forum.

I think you will find this group a pretty good cross section of people willing to muck with their amps. And everything from guys with 50+ years of experience down to guys with 50+ hours of experience. There are guys with tremendous overall knowledge, and guys with very specific expertises. Guys who are pretty straightforward, and a few BS artists. Kinda like life in general.

One thing I don't see here so much, is a willingness to protect sacred cows mindlessly. I think when some technical baloney comes along, there are people willing to look into it objectively and report on it with straight poop. And I think terms like NEVER, ALWAYS, and HAVE TO are used sparingly.

Some of us resist having our minds changed, and others want to learn. I know I have had my mind changed on a variety of matters. SOmetimes even by myself. No better way to learn than to sit down ready to explain somthing to someone else and discover that the way I had always thought about the topic was...WRONG.

MM iron is currently still hot. I observe that "Orange Drops" have fallen from the pedastal. They all come and go.

One thing I do still see is something like this:

"I just rebuilt my 5E4E6E3 clone with the Blackface changes. I changed to XXX transformers, rewired the B+ for reduced screens, changed the tone stack values to make it a little more (or less) middle-y, replaced all the caps with orange drops, Changed the phase inverter to XXX style, made my NFB variable and added a resonance control , and ..." oh that's enough.

Then the finishing line, "Those orange drops really make this amp come alive."

Really? Through all that other crap you can tell? Better ears than mine.

[Tom Phillips]

++ to that!

[Steve Conner]

Mmm, sacred cowburger.

I remember somewhere an OT shootout where the guy had four OTs bolted to a plank of wood sitting on top of his amp, with AMP connectors to quickly change them over. I can't find the site, but I do remember that he liked the Mercury the least.

Some of the Mercury OPTs have very strange stacking patterns. Look at their RS clone.

They claim their ToneClone series are "exact genetic duplicates", which I guess is to suggest that they've somehow isolated the mystical tone-DNA of the original transformer and infused it into their clone, and that's why it's so expensive even though it actually looks and measures nothing like the original.

My own personal belief is: If you can play guitar and you have something to say to your audience, they ain't going to care about the output transformer.

[GregS]

I hope I'm not being paranoid here but I've been wondering from some of the posts that followed mine if I've been misinterpreted as believing mindlessly in hype or trying to protect sacred cows. I may be mistaken but I thought that the MM clone transformers were reasonably close in spec to the originals. Close enough that they could be used as a replacement part at least. I thought that could be good in the case of a vintage amp where the original part is either hard to obtain or outrageously expensive for collectible reasons. I don't know. Maybe there other brands that also make transformers that are as close or closer in spec and are just as suitable as a replacement part.

I built a copy of a Marshall 20W amp for someone a while back and used MM transformers that were supposed to be clones of the originals. I had a problem with the B+ being too high causing the EL84's to redplate. I needed to use a zener to get the voltage down. I have also read on this forum that other people have had similar problems with their Tone Clone power transformers. I thought that possibly this is a problem now because of higher voltages out of the wall and less robust power tubes than the past. Otherwise, the amp sounded good but did not try with any other tranformers to compare.

My own choice of tranformers for my builds is Hammond. They're reasonably priced and I've had good results with them.

Greg