Single ended Class-A tube wear question

[Jared Purdy]

I respect your points, however...I've had three amps in the past year. All three have been PCB, all three have had some serious issues. I only have one left. Where to go: Carr, Redplate, Headstrong, Vintage Sounds, Allen? PTP is easy to fix, comparatively to PCB. I know it sounds irrational, as there are thousands of users of PCB amps out there who have no issues (the VOX AC15 custom, for example). Why me!? I don't gig, my amp sits in my dinning room 24/7. I play on average an hour to an hour and a half a day, missing the occassional days in between - being a hubby and a dad to a hockey daughter. It's not like the thing(s) are getting worked over. I don't let it run on standby, for very long. Usually not more than 5 minutes. The Mesa is the most expensive amp that I have owned, it also has the most serious problems (unexpectedly blowing two rectifier tubes and four fuses in less that a week). The Peavey Classic 30 tube's rattled incessantly, 2nd channel was a joke; Fender PRRI, speaker farted out terribly at volumes above 5/10. If these amps were on the cheap side, I couldn't complain, and I suppose the Peavey, by comparison, is on the cheap side. But even still, it's over $600! The tube rattle is an inherant design problem, as is the farty speaker issue with the PR/PRRI! I just want to buy an amp and not have to worry when the thing is going to start to crap out on me.

[MWJB]

Nearly all amps are PCB when you consider the big picture, only a small percentage are PTP hand-wired. PTP/handwiring does not eliminate issues...many vintage amps & many small scale builds that are PTP still have issues. Tube rattle? How is PTP going to fix that? Not that I suspect it is "tube rattle"...poor layout & resulting parasitics often results in a rattle that sounds like a tube.

Unfortunately the PRRI is now well documented as having these issues...as is the Marshall 1962, Fender Blues Jr, Peavey C30 & more...The fact that you play at home makes these issues stand out more, I'm sure that there are guys who play out a lot, still have the same problems but never hear them.

Where to go? Go where they sell an amp that you like the sound of. If that happens to be a £2+ PTP amp then that's what you want...if it happens to be a $600 PCB amp, then so be it (if the C30 2nd channel was a joke, then it was always a joke, not just when you got it home). Looking arbtrarily at brands isn't logical, they all make differing models, work out what kind of tone you want, what power you need, then the budget, forget any relationship between power & price ($/per watt, small amps get very expensive quick). But they all use tubes, tubes draw current, if they draw too much you may have problems, you are still going to have to do the odd check (the Mesas issues might be "serious", then again they might not, fuses are supposed to blow when too much current is drawn - smokle & fire, now that's a serious issue! :-))...you will still find issues if you look hard enough & I get the feeling that the more money you spend the harder you will be looking...;-)

[Steve Conner]

I just want to buy an amp and not have to worry when the thing is going to start to crap out on me.

Go to Craigslist and get an old Peavey Bandit, then.

Most combos I know have tube rattle to some extent. My latest homebuilt amp has EL84s and suffers from it terribly, I may have to check out the tube clamps that Enzo used to sell.

And tubes are fundamentally unreliable, they are fragile consumable items that break and wear out. There's a reason they don't use them in missiles and spacecraft any more.

But not to belittle your problems with the Mesa, which were way out of order and should definitely be fixed under warranty. Rectifier tubes are supposed to last thousands of hours of heavy use, not explode the first time you throw the standby switch.

[MWJB]

"And tubes are fundamentally unreliable, they are fragile consumable items that break and wear out. There's a reason they don't use them in missiles and spacecraft any more." Indeed, look at tubes like brake pads, or tyres on your car...do you really want an "everlasting tyre" when it gets wet & slippery, or do you want what's safest & accept they need changing from time to time? It is possible to build & design a tube amp where the tubes could potentially last a human lifetime, cut back voltage & current...not likely to produce a very inspiring tone though. And tone is the reason you should be chosing a tube amp, or any specific model of amp. Tubes wear out, but then they are easy & relatively cheap to change, fixed bias amps need idle plate current to be checked/adjusted when tubes are changed (despite what Randall Smith @ Mesa might say). Guys gig hundreds of dates a year with 50yr old tube amps very reliably, just ascertain a reasonable part life...likewise guitar cords, patch cables etc - they'll all last forever if you keep them in the box! ;-)

Jared, you might want to consider a "cathode biased" amp, designed for "fit & forget" tube fitting/swapping, not trying to steer you towards any particular model, but amps like the Victoria Regal II is designed to take any 8 pin (6V6/6L6/EL34 based) power tube...or even mismatched types between its 2 power tube sockets. For home use there are 5-10W single-ended amps that aren't fussy about tube type or bias. Be aware that cathode bias is used by some mass manufacturers because it is cheaper than fixed, so I'd largely steer clear of cheap, mass market & even some vintage amps as these run the tubes at very high idle currents. Fixed bias with externally accessible bias points (Carr & Kendrick for example) & trim pot is another route, then you can check & adjust within manufacturers perameters yourself wit a screwdriver & a voltmeter.

[Jared Purdy]

Ya, the Bandit, and the VOX AC15 get rave reviews, whether it's at TGP or tdpri, people with multiple amps, often have one or the other. Yesterday, I was returning the "faulty" Mesa 5Y3, and decided to check out the AC15. It's nice, has character, and all of $650 You could have three for the price of one LSS! However, I have an aversion to buying an amp that is made in China, particulalry that it is made from MDF. That sucker weighs a ton, it's not as big as the LSS and feels like it weighs the same, or more! I have the new Mesa 5Y3 in, it's been in since yesterday afternoon, and I've logged about 3 hours on it, and so far so good. I'm going to call the manager of the store today, and explain the situation with the amp (he doesn't know that I spoke with the tech in their repair shop), and say that if the amp is defective, I want my money back as I am not going to wait weeks for it to be fixed. I looked at the store's return policy, and it says 30 days max, after which, it goes into warranty repair mode. We'll see how babdly they want my business again.

So far this year from that store: a Fender Strat Deluxe, a Peavey C30 (returned and tradded up for a PRRI, which has subsiquently been sold), Mesa LSS, a Fender Jazz bass for my daughter, a Line 6 amp for my daughter, and a Fender Rumbler 30 watt bass amp for my daughter, plus a set up on her Fender MIM Strat, countless strings, guitar stands, tuners, yadda, tadda, yadda. Going back 30 years, thousands of $$$ on harmonicas (it use to be my main instrument, and I played in a couple of bands). So, they have seen a lot of my $$$$!!!

[redelephant]

If you have the money, go for something you will truely appreciate over the years. A massproduced product will not give you the same enjoyment as a PTP amp from say Carr, BadCat, or Matchless. But for xrist sake, dont get a 100watter, 20watts should be plenty in your situation.

[MWJB]

That's a bit of a broad statement, I know plenty of guys who own/have owned very expensive amps...only to sell them and find that a mass produced amp with a few thoughtful tweaks sounds better. A handbuilt amp will have a better resale value, will usually last longer...but whether you prefer the tone depends on the sound you hear in your head to start with...so try before you buy, go with your ears & forget about price.

[JoeM]

Exactly.

[Jared Purdy]

Indeed, try before you guy is the way to go. I was very close to ordering the Tone King Imperial without having heard it. Luckly a mint one showed up used in a local store. I went right down and tried it. Man I'm I glad I had that opportunity. I didn't like the sond at all, as well made it is, it wasn't for me.

[ThermionicScott]

This is why I prefer to build all my own stuff. I'm responsible for QC and parts choices, and I can mod it if something isn't to my liking.

That, and it's fun.

- Scott

[GregS]

With regards to the PCB and tubes part of the topic, the problems with inexpensive PCB amps very often have to do with connections going bad and intermittent, partial, or bad sound resulting. There are a few reasons for this. One is repeated heating and cooling of solder joints (which are not substantial to begin with) causing them to deteriorate with time. Also vibrations contribute and these problems are worse in a combo amp with the tubes upside down heating up the chassis which is in close proximity to the speaker. Also, often the jacks, switches, and pots are connected directly to the board and mechanical stresses make these connections go bad.

However, normally these problems don't occur before the amp has had significant mileage put on it. That used to be the case anyway. Maybe the very recent amps are a lot worse or you've had very bad luck.

Just about all the problems and failures I've had with amps (and anyone I know of) have had nothing to do with the tubes. It's often connections going bad like I mentioned above. If the tubes are good to begin with and the amp is not designed to push them right to the edge then they are quite reliable and will last a long time.

Greg

[Jared Purdy]

That's what I say too. The product is defective and a big store like Steve's should take it back for a full refund no questions asked. If you sell it yourself you'll probably lose $100's on it. If there's any issues with returning it you might consider going to Long & McQuade for any future purchases. They're very good about stuff like that. They'll even give you a month to decide if you like something or not, and if not you can return it for a full refund.

Greg, I replied 2X to your PM, but my sent folder is showing "0 messages sent". Not sure what is going on.

[redelephant]

Guess I'm kinda emotional...I just don't like the idea of craftsmen in my own neighborhood disappearing b/c the have no business. Like I fix my boots every once in a while just to support the local Korean guy who sits in his little shoe repair booth by the mall. I even had a zipper fixed on one of my kids jackets even tho byuing a new one cost about the same. I just don't like the 'use and thrash' mentality we are into these days.
Buying a massproduced item means buying from a production line where the people working the line often don't even know what they are making is, and they really don't care about how well it works. Buying from some small scale business usually means buying from craftsmen who love their products and carer about how they end up being used.
But it's impossible to know for sure, since most of the 'boutique' amps we hear about are probably at such a large scale production that even they end up mass producing using workers who don't care...But they probably have QAs who do a better job than massmade factory stuff.
So whenever I can afford it, I buy small scale, knowing the product is not the most for the buck...

[Steve Conner]

Redelephant, you're Norwegian, right? Or Swedish or something. I'm sure I remember seeing your crazy OTL amps on some site somewhere.

I'm doing contract research for a Norwegian company right now. One reason (AFAIK) they outsourced it is because they can pay me half what a Norwegian engineer would want. The cost of living in Glasgow is half what it is in Oslo, Trondheim, etc. so I get a great deal in real terms.

The moral of the story is, if you don't want local craftsmen to disappear, don't let your country's standard of living get too high!

[redelephant]

Yeah, halfway anyhow, American living in Norway. And you are absolutely right. Doing anything related to production here is a nightmare, and even when my prices match US/UK levels my income from tubeamps is negative. So for me this is just a passion thing I do just b/c I want to. Here people have these huge oil-pillows under their arms they don't see why we should have any production of anything. How fast they forget Norway was one of the poorest nations in Europe before oil...and the oil will end in my generation. Talk about a bubble going to burst.