To stand-by, or to not stand-by?

[Jared Purdy]

I have no idea. I'm not an amp technician, and I don't hord amp tech related info! I'm not that concerned with tube amp life either, as I have come to believe that they should last a long time. I became alarmed at what was happening to my $2000 amp when after 4 weeks of ownership (it was new) I saw a veritable lighening storm in the 5Y3 bottle, and fuses started to pop. I have a better "understanding" now, though I wouldn't call it an understanding! I'd call it reading well written technical posts from other respondents where I have done my damndest to absorb as much as possible! I don't understand electricity. It's an abstract phenomenon to me. I do understand that humans don't make things as well as we should (i.e., tubes). If you ever ask me a question, I can guarantee that I won't refer to you as annoying, or that you have an alterior motive to your questons, or that you are an idiot, or that... You get the point. Most of the time, I'll just give my point which is based on my experiences with this: 40 years playing harmonica, 30 years with accoustic guitar, just over one year with electric guitar (Fender Strat Deluxe), just over one year with Peavey C30, Fender PRRI (and some mods), and a Mesa 112 LSS. Thats it. Is the whole greater than the sum of the parts?

[cminor9]

I have no idea. I'm not an amp technician, and I don't hord amp tech related info!
I'm not that concerned with tube amp life either, as I have come to believe that they should last a long time. I became alarmed at what was happening to my $2000 amp when after 4 weeks of ownership (it was new) I saw a veritable lighening storm in the 5Y3 bottle, and fuses started to pop.

Is the whole greater than the sum of the parts?

I know what little I know about amps and tube circuits from reading books, hanging out here, and doing. Long ago, I worked my way through school doing basic electrical work. But running romex for a new circuit from a service panel or wiring up some three way switches doesn't exactly prepare you for cracking open a tube amp, much less building one which I have done now several times.

Regarding standby switches, here is my boiled down summary of a similar thread I read here about a year ago: cathode stripping isn't an issue at the voltages within a tube amp, so a standby switch isn't necessary to save the tubes. Tubes, like onions and ogres, die. That's why they are in fact plugged into sockets. You're more likely to send tubes to the grave from running them in a vox ac30 than you are in an amp without a standby switch. If you like standby switches, use em. If not, don't. No big deal. As someone mentioned, we aren't building nuclear subs here. If the thing turns on, doesn't catch fire, doesn't roam the countryside at night eating babies, and most importantly DOES sound good...the rest is preference. Pepporoni vs Sausage. Potayto vs potahto. Tastes great vs less filling. Kick in the nuts vs poke in the eye. And so on.

Regarding your amp...

I won't waste time telling you what other have said. Sounds like you're taking it in for repair, I think you're on your way. You'd think that $2000 is enough for a hassle-free amp that is built like a tank, but even then there are lemons. You may have gotten some bad tubes, or a bad amp. Either way, you have a warranty. You may never know why it blew up, but if you get a working amp you are good. If you have a lemon, you'll know soon enough.

I've had tubes fail immediately out of the box, I've had some fail after a few days. I have a tube from a early 1950's Hammond organ that is still good. You would probably be prone to failure too if you were made of glass and thin strands of tungsten and mica and steel in a former communist country, thrown into a box, and then into a bigger box, driven across a bumpy road, thrown on a boat, shipped across the atlantic ocean, thrown onto another truck, into a warehouse, then thrown onto another truck, and delivered by a barely sober fedex employee.

Oh, and the whole is always greater than the sum of its parts. If you disagree, I'll trade your boogie for a box of electrical components. Of course, I'd just sell it so I could buy more of those said components so I could build an amp I actually like.

One more thing: before teeing off on MWJB any more, you really should look back at this thread http://music-electronics-forum.com/t23154/. He gave you a lot of good info there.

[Steve Conner]

doesn't catch fire, doesn't roam the countryside at night eating babies

Not much of an amp then. If I were in a metal band, I'd be disappointed!

Jared, when I said "annoying questions": You jacked at least one other person's thread and turned it into a discussion on your Mesa standby switch. And it seems like a pretty trivial problem, hardly worth having three threads on it at once. My reasoning goes as follows:

1. No commercial electronic product should have a switch that makes it self-destruct. The failure rate would be huge, and the company would go out of business from warranty returns.

2. Mesa have remained in business for many years.

3. Therefore, you can not break a Mesa LSS by somehow "using the standby switch wrong".

4. Therefore, your amp broke because you had some bad tubes.

This was the first thing I told you, and the fact that your amp is working fine after a tube replacement confirms my theory.

Also since the amp is under warranty, the problem wasn't really even yours.

We could remove you from the forum, but you know you'll want back in as soon as you find another question that Mesa tech support can't answer.

[MWJB]

Jared, your opinion of me personally is irrelevant, my opinion of you as a person is irrelevant (well, to me), if you have any questions in the future I'd be happy to offer some insights, it's the questions/issues that interest me, rather than the poster...I don't suspect that you have an ulterior motive, just that you ask questions & don't read/take in the answers provided. Rather than do a bit of practical research, you flit about from thread to thread, forum to forum, recycling the same issues. It irked me and I said so, yet I continued to contribute to your thread in a practical & positive manner (regarding the amp anyway).

This thread was started on Jan 11, yet on the thread that Steve refers to as the one you jacked, I posted this in response to your post on 5 Jan...JP wrote: "It's on stand-by right now"...(MWJB) How long do you leave it on standby? You only need standby for the first 30 seconds, or so, after throwing the power switch, then again a few seconds before powering down. Amps don't like being left in standby for long periods. If you're going to leave the amp "off" for more than a couple of minutes, power down completely."

People take time to answer your questions, the least you can do is read the answers. You want information then that's what the forum is for, but you shouldn't expect everyone to pamper your ego. Referring to Steve O'Connor as "shit for brains" is way out of line, he is one of the most knowledgeable & valued contributors on this forum. I hope your amp continues to work flawlessly, but in the meantime I think ENGINE ROOM might be more useful to you...unless the arrogant, high-minded, shit for brains, people who know what they are doing contributors over there send you into a funk?

[Jared Purdy]

cminor9, Steve, and MWJB,

This is more sobber. To MWJB, I do read all of the posts, that is why I say thank you to the respondents, and I believe I thanked you before this thread became poisoned. I don't always mention names, but I do cross reference on other forums, where I'll suddenly remember someone's handle, or real name (not too many of those), and I'll say that: "So and so over at the Music Electronics Forum had this advice....". That is a type of recognition, and flattery. For a person like myself, who is new to the world of tube amps (any amp actually), when I get contradictory information, I continue digging. I don't expect everyone to agree, that's normal, but that does occassionally result in asking more questions, or continuing the inquiry.

To Steve, it was not my intent to high jack that thread. I read about his issues (can't remember his name), and mine seem related, so I posted my experiences. Before I knew it, 20 people were weighing in on my post to his thread. It was not my intention. I think it was Enzo (I know him from the Peavey forum "The Whammy Bar and Grill", so I tend to remember his name) that came back in and redirected the the thread back to it's original issue (which I can't remember). That's okay, and he did the right thing.

I refer to anyone in the same manner that I think that I am being referred to. If you are polite to me, you'll get polite right back. If you're rude, well, that's what you'll get back, not always, but often. Personally, I don't ever refer to anyone on these forums as annoying, or alterior, or any other slight. It's plain and simply, rude. I mean, most of us don't actually know anyone here! Why be surly to strangers, when we're looking for each other's information, and when all of us clearly share in the same passion? If you want to encourage involvment, don't accuse someone of something that may in fact be patently false, and don't call them annoying! That is not going to encourage anything constructive! I know, I'm a college teacher, and generally in education, we follow the rule: "no question is a stupid question"! That is especially the case if the question is coming from the uninitiated, or the illinformed. With respect to amps, that would be me, and a whole lot of other players out there.

We all read plenty of comments and questions where we just roll our eyes at what we each percieve as stupid comments and questions. When I see posts like that, I move along. I mean seriously, we are in a venue, where none of us know each other, and you refer to someone as "annoying", or you insinuate that they have alterior motives for asking a question (which can only be deduced if you're assuming that the person asking the question knows the answer), that "you are wasting their time", etc., and what kind of a reply should be forthcoming? "Oh it's okay, I don't mind if you call me annoying, or make insinuations about me, or if you tell me that I'm wasting you time, really, it's alright, I mean we haven't even met, but it's okay". Hmmm? I don't think so. And I'm sure if any of you were slapped 2x on the same post, from two different people, for simply asking a question, most of you would'nt just let it go.

And, I had no idea that the question had been asked before in so many different ways, and on so many different forums. Sometimes when I do a search to see if a question has been asked, if it's a really old post, I'll repost it, as a new thread. I've been told, or read from other posters, that it's a good way to bring an older issue to light, for newer members, while at the same time avoiding the creation - of what I have learned - is a "zombie thread". As for what I found when doing a search, I can't remember, I do know that almost every issue (as a newbie) seems to be original, and it only happens to the owner! Well, that is not the case as we know, but it often feels like that. So, out comes the question, that may have been asked a dozen times previously, but because it is your amp, and your unique circiumstances, you feel that a new thread is warranted.

The Mesa is fine (knock on wood). As I said in an earlier post, I suspect that the tube problem was related to the amp being in the store for 13 months, on the floor, and being subjected to any number of possible false power-ups and power-downs. I mean, I see people in stores flicking both the power and standby switchs on at the same time, play for ten seconds, and then turn them off simultaneously! How good is that for the amp?! I have no doubt that happened to mine. And then, I come along, buy my first amp with a standby switch (the previous two amps did not have a standby), and I was likely using it incorrectly (even though I read the manual), and a month into the game, POP!

In closing, I thank ALL of the respondents to my thread, I have learned a lot from MWJB, Steve, cminor9, some guy with the words red elephant in his name, and many others with unusual handles that I cannot recollect at this time. Thank you! I did not intend to highjack that earlier thread, and my apologies are offered if that is what happened. I won't refer to any of you in any derogatory way, if you don't refer to me that way. Aren't we all here for the same reasons?

[MWJB]

That's cool with me Jared & my apologies if I appeared intolerant. I wholeheartedly agree with the ethos of there being "no stupid questions".

"As I said in an earlier post, I suspect that the tube problem was related to the amp being in the store for 13 months, on the floor, and being subjected to any number of possible false power-ups and power-downs. I mean, I see people in stores flicking both the power and standby switchs at the same time, play for ten seconds, and then turn them off simultaneously! How good is that for the amp?!" In a design with adequate headroom over the limitations of the weakest link in the chain, the above scenario should have absolutely no effect on the amp's reliability. BUT let's say the design pushes certain criteria towards borderline on component max tolerances. It may only take a relatively small discrepancy to push things over the edge. Amps, like any other equipment, are built to "nominal" specs (too costly for most manufacturers to check every voltage in each unit) so once in a while you might be unlucky enough to just have a little too much wall AC voltage (also nominal), power tubes that draw a little too much idle plate current & this might be enough to push the weakest link in the chain (your 5Y3) past its tipping point.

My best guess (without getting "hands on" with your amp, that's all anyone can really offer) is that you had some hot power tubes that drew lots of current through the rectifier, stressing it. The standby switch is just a catalyst, it's not breaking your amp, it's just showing up where the weakness is...so thoughtful operation of what should be a benign aspect becomes a factor. Hopefully, your new power tubes are a little cooler running & alleviating the issue. It probably seems a little counter-intuative - the problem was likely the power tubes, but they would probably go on and on, running hot for years (certainly beyond warranty period assuming home use), whilst other parts pay the price & give up the ghost. Under warranty, no-one should be touching the internals of your amp other than Mesa/Mesa approved workshop, but idle current can be measured/checked without taking the chassis out & the Weber WY3 rectifier may prove more robust than a glass tube 5Y3. You can always sub it for the original defunct part if problems persist & you need to return the amp...it's OK I won't tell anyone, it'll just be between you & me, honest! ;-)

To even experienced players, there is often the illusion that different brands & models of amps are vastly different in their MO, when you get down to the nitty gritty, you tend to realise that they are really much more alike & prone to the same/similar issues. Tubes work & often fail, the same way, in the same envronment (regarding volts & milliamps that they see)...they don't know or care what the badge on the front of the amp says.

Cheers, Mark.

[Jared Purdy]

That's cool with me Jared & my apologies if I appeared intolerant. I wholeheartedly agree with the ethos of there being "no stupid questions".

"As I said in an earlier post, I suspect that the tube problem was related to the amp being in the store for 13 months, on the floor, and being subjected to any number of possible false power-ups and power-downs. I mean, I see people in stores flicking both the power and standby switchs at the same time, play for ten seconds, and then turn them off simultaneously! How good is that for the amp?!" In a design with adequate headroom over the limitations of the weakest link in the chain, the above scenario should have absolutely effect on the amp's reliability. BUT let's say the design pushes certain criteria towards borderline on component max tolerances. It may only take a relatively small discrepancy to push things over the edge. Amps, like any other equipment, are built to "nominal" specs (too costly for most manufacturers to check every voltage in each unit) so once in a while you might be unlucky enough to just have a little too much wall AC voltage (also nominal), power tubes that draw a little too much idle plate current & this might be enough to push the weakest link in the chain (your 5Y3) past its tipping point.

My best guess (without getting "hands on" with your amp, that's all anyone can really offer) is that you had some hot power tubes that drew lots of current through the rectifier, stressing it. The standby switch is just a catalyst, it's not breaking your amp, it's just showing up where the weakness is...so thoughtful operation of what should be a benign aspect becomes a factor. Hopefully, your new power tubes are a little cooler running & alleviating the issue. It probably seems a little counter-intuative - the problem was likely the power tubes, but they would probably go on and on, running hot for years (certainly beyond warranty period assuming home use), whilst other parts pay the price & give up the ghost. Under warranty, no-one should be touching the internals of your amp other than Mesa/Mesa approved workshop, but idle current can be measured/checked without taking the chassis out & the Weber WY3 rectifier may prove more robust than a glass tube 5Y3. You can always sub it for the original defunct part if problems persist & you need to return the amp...it's OK I won't tell anyone, it'll just be between you & me, honest! ;-)

To even experienced players, there is often the illusion that different brands & models of amps are vastly different in their MO, when you get down to the nitty gritty, you tend to realise that they are really much more alike & prone to the same/similar issues. Tubes work & often fail, the same way, in the same envronment (regarding volts & milliamps that they see)...they don't know or care what the badge on the front of the amp says.

Cheers, Mark.

Thanks Mark, yes apologies all around, and accepted! Thanks for that clarification. I believe the store tech said the same thing. I replaced the tubes that were in it with Mesa matched tubes (I believe it said "Green" on the packaging). I don't quite understand the colour coded thing, I'll have to call Mesa, get an explanation, and then post the reply, unless anyone here knows?? I bought a spare set, which are not perfectly matched, though the repair shop tech told me that it would'nt be an issue, and I woudln't hear the difference. One pair is marked "Green", and the other pair is marked "Gray" Both have the number "10" on the box. Hopefully, I won't need them for a long time.

I have so say, that I enjoy the amp side of things as much as the guitar. In fact, when it comes to amps, I think that I am a serial philanderer! I'm not sure how you could have just one! There are so many great amps out there, and the build quality on many of them is stellar, and they have some incredible tones and options. Whe I get the next one, I'll be sure to let you know. I'm leaning towards a Carr Rambler, a Tone KingImperial, a Vintage Sounds PR clone, a Goodsell Super 17 MkIII......!!! Amp heaven (and maybe amp headache!!??)

[GregS]

Does your amp have any external bias test points on the back? (i.e. jacks that you can put the probes of a multimeter in and see how much current each half of the power section is conducting). This way you can easily see whether a particular set of power tubes is drawing an abnormal amount of current or how balanced each half of the power section is without having to remove the chassis.

Greg

[Jared Purdy]

Hi Greg, No, from what I understand (based on what I have read) Randall's infinte wisdom led him to believe that was necessary, as you can't bias a Mesa amp!

[Jared Purdy]

Thanks, got it . I posted a reply somwhere on this thread (I find it a bit confusing hoow these "branches" are created when you quote someone. Nonetheless, thanks, all is calm now in the land of OZ.

[Gtr_tech]

If you need to go away for 20 mins or so, assuming the amp doesn't hum & you don't leave the guitar in a fashon that will cause feedback, you may as well leave it in play mode (not bother with standby). I would use the standby when initialy powering up (that's what it is for) & not leave the amp in standby for extended periods.

+1. I always tell my customers the same. Couple minutes in stby is fine, half an hour or more can damage the cathodes.

To keep thermal cycling to a minimum, leave the amp in play mode until you're done playing thru it.

[kg]

Most amps are designed not to stress their rectifiers (1st filter cap largely is irrelevant, voltage & current draw are more pertinent),

you might want to rethink that statement.

[kg]

Concerning the initial question, I have found over the years that the relative importance of something in terms of it having any discernable impact upon what we do, is inversely proportional to how long we can discuss it before concluding ANYTHING.

how do you feel about monster cable?

[MWJB]

Why? Most amps built with a tube rectifier only have a 1st filter cap of around 40-50uf, all the commonly used 8 pin 5v rectifiers will take that perfectly happily. Plenty of boutique amps are built with 100uf at the first filter...again, 5Y3/5V4/5U4/5AR4 all take it, no problem.

[kg]

Why? Most amps built with a tube rectifier only have a 1st filter cap of around 40-50uf, all the commonly used 8 pin 5v rectifiers will take that perfectly happily. Plenty of boutique amps are built with 100uf at the first filter...again, 5Y3/5V4/5U4/5AR4 all take it, no problem.

thinking that the capacitance of a cap input filter does not directly affect peak rectifier currents (and therefore rectifying tube lifespan) is absolutely wrong.

that's why it's specifically listed on every datasheet you'll ever see.