Why tube amp sound better than solid state?

[kleuck]

Internal resistance of different batteries (different technology) can be night and day : used in vintage pedals without any power filtering, it can make a not so subtly difference.
If you own a Ge Fuzz-Face, try to put in a modern NimH battery, then a cheap Zinc one, you'll hear a difference.
Of course, as long as the pedal is fitted with a somewhat modern filtering, there's no more difference, at least with a fresh battery.

[Enzo]

But the golden ears are not trying to differentiate between modern NimH and cheap zinc. They are claiming to differentiate between two brands of modern commercial alkaline batteries.

[kleuck]

[Chuck H]

But the golden ears are not trying to differentiate between modern NimH and cheap zinc. They are claiming to differentiate between two brands of modern commercial alkaline batteries.

Right. I remember hearing about this and checking the voltages on a couple of different batteries I had on hand. They did put out different voltages. I didn't take it to the next logical step though. Which would have been to research schematics for the pedals Eric uses (though he's known to be secretive about it) and see if the voltages are regulated.

[Alan0354]

I would like to give EJ a blind test. I think it's psychosomatic. I agree the player is the only one that feel the difference, not the audience.

[Chuck H]

On a couple of my pedals I can hear the difference of different voltages. Nothing anyone else would notice though. I think EJ could pass your test based on my own experience. I noticed that 9V batteries put out 7.9 to 9.1 volts new out of the package. 1.2V doesn't seem like much but it's a 13% difference. Most 9V wall warts put out a 9+ volts. I tend to prefere the higher volts. I use the wall wart or Duracell batteries when I can. When I was gigging and I had to pick up extra batteries as backups I hated when the store was out of Duracell and I had to buy a different brand because I knew my sound would be off a little.

This seems to apply mostly to the preamp type pedals like distortion boxes. I have to assume then that there is no regulation in the pedals I used. I hear no difference with delay and such.

[kleuck]

Yes, most of the times, as it is with tube amps VS SS ones (often) so what ?
I play, i want the best for MY ears.
Tube amps for example, imho, exibits a subtle mix of compression/expansion which may not be heard directly from the audience, BUT, it can, and most of the time is what can make the difference between an so-so session and a great gig for the guitarist, and for the audience : if his playing is better, the gig will be better, doesn't matter if the audience never have a clue about the very subtle reason

[Steve Conner]

Sorry JM but I think the clips sound more like typical SS pedals than tube amps. No offense intended. Just one guys opinion.

Well, the thought had crossed my mind too! The way I see it, there are two explanations:

1. KMG's idea is fundamentally flawed and his MOSFET thingies will never sound like tubes.
2. The idea is good, but the clips sound uninspiring because KMG and his guitar playing friends have no taste in music. (Or at least, different taste to Chuck's.)

I vote for 2. Apologies KMG if you are reading this

[Alan0354]

On a couple of my pedals I can hear the difference of different voltages. Nothing anyone else would notice though. I think EJ could pass your test based on my own experience. I noticed that 9V batteries put out 7.9 to 9.1 volts new out of the package. 1.2V doesn't seem like much but it's a 13% difference. Most 9V wall warts put out a 9+ volts. I tend to prefere the higher volts. I use the wall wart or Duracell batteries when I can. When I was gigging and I had to pick up extra batteries as backups I hated when the store was out of Duracell and I had to buy a different brand because I knew my sound would be off a little.

This seems to apply mostly to the preamp type pedals like distortion boxes. I have to assume then that there is no regulation in the pedals I used. I hear no difference with delay and such.

If there is almost two volts difference, of cause you can tell particular when the circuit is running close to clipping. But if the batteries the same voltage, you cannot tell the difference. You can only buy into so much VooDoo and myth. I use Duracell, they starts out about 9.3V and quickly down to a little below 9, then as it get used, it will go lower and lower to even 7.6V.

[teemuk]

Well, the thought had crossed my mind too! The way I see it, there are two explanations:

You forgot there's actually at least three:

3. Chuck can safely assume the clips were made with a transistor amp so he'll wager it's a crappy tone.

If it goes to guessing games then my vote almost always goes to motives coloured by prejudices and prebias. I think demo clips of this sort of stugg would be more fun if they were done on a manner of: "3 out of 5 clips are made with my tube emulating circuits, two others are real tube amps. I'm not going to tell you which are which. Hahaha!"

[Chuck H]

Good call. Believe it or not I'm just humble enough to laugh it off if I got it wrong. And I'd want to know more about the system that fooled me.

[J M Fahey]

Agree and add:
1) betting on a certain result, no doubt makes it easier to "win"
I'm *sure* that betting on an unknown "number" (which 3 out of these 5 ... ?) would be quite different.
2) I liked very much what KMG's friend played, my tastes are wider and go from real old to beyond future.
That said, I bet that if Eric Johnson (or Joe Bonamassa for that matter) had plugged his guitar there and played, the perceived "tone" would have been interpreted in a different way.
3) last but not least, the amp emulated there was a JCM800, an amp known for getting most of its typical distortion from its preamp and accused of being buzzy, unless used full throat.
Itīs definitely mosquito-type if used with master below 6 .... even although itīs full tube.
4) Iīll ask KMG to emulate a 5E3 , have a bluesy friend play (there are many excellent Russian Blues players) and post a random mix for us to sort.
It will be interesting.
5) I have already listened to such comparisons, which included even PODs, and listener precision (or error) approached 50% (same as flipping a coin).
Oh well.

[Chuck H]

Well, Considering that a JCM800 was the goal I guess I should bow out. That amp is the best SS emulation done with tubes

There are definitely some good things happening in the upper mids and top end on the clean tone that sound better than average for SS. If it were a more twangy type tone that accentuated those frequencies it might fool me in a blind test.

[kleuck]

If there is almost two volts difference, of cause you can tell particular when the circuit is running close to clipping. But if the batteries the same voltage, you cannot tell the difference. You can only buy into so much VooDoo and myth. I use Duracell, they starts out about 9.3V and quickly down to a little below 9, then as it get used, it will go lower and lower to even 7.6V.

Not only a voltage issue : the actual resistance of the battery is part of the load for a Fuzz face for example.

[Steve Conner]

Thanks for the post JM. I really do think that the "bad" sound of KMG's audio clips is just the taste of whoever set up the amps and mic'd up the cabinet.

Also, some of them are "reamped": the guitarist was originally playing through something else and the clean output of his guitar was recorded in 24-bit and then played back through the amp under test. This makes it impossible to consider "feel" because the player isn't interacting with the same circuit we're hearing. That might well affect the tone negatively.

Or maybe the emulation circuit could use a little tuning by ear besides just copying waveforms.

And yes, the internal resistance of the Fuzz Face battery is part of the audio circuit.