Using power conditioners with Guitar amps?

[R.G.]

I have not done detail analysis as that is not my interest. But I think the impedance of the cable

Alan, forgive me for the form of this reply, but in matters like this, it is important to do the detail analysis to have an informed view of what is happening. Otherwise, it is just an opinion, not an informed one.

does play a part of it as a small fraction of an ohm will change a lot at the higher frequency range.

And this is one of those issues. Ohms never change - an ohm is one volt per ampere. Resistance is (ideally!) frequency independent, so 1 ohm *resistive* is the same from DC to daylight. Inductive and capacitance both have reactive impedances, which vary directly with frequency. These impedances (how many volts drop across the part per ampere of current flow) do change with frequency, in a predictable way.

As I said I was surprised the skin depth calculation gives on 0.6mm at just 10KHz.

I'd have to go verify the number, so this is without my doing the math - my bad! - but the important issue is whether a skin depth of 0.6mm changes the resistance, inductance, and/or capacitance of the wires enough in comparison to the speaker's own impedances to make a difference. Many speakers, for instance, have several ohms of resistance, ignoring for the moment the internal inductances and capacitances, and changing the speaker lead resistance by small amounts causes very, very little change in the voltage or current delivered to the speaker.

Human can feel to about 20KHz

I'm not clear on what you meant here. Humans - well, young humans with good hearing that has not been damaged by loud sounds, anyway - can hear up close to 20kHz. Not all humans can hear that.

Humans may be able to feel electricity at various levels of perception from DC up to megahertz. The (literal!!) skin effect forces the currents to the outside of humans like any conductor at high frequencies. So lighting strikes are often conducted solely through skin. I'd have to go look up the variation of human feeling with frequency.

so the current of the most of the important frequency components really flow on or close to the surface.

The problem with this is that to humans, the biggest sensitivity to sounds is down in the 1-3kHz range, not up at the top. I'd have a hard time saying what frequency is most important to humans.

It is not the resistance of the cable, I think it's the inductance of the cable that has more effect.

This is one of those things that needs detail analysis to figure out. If the inductance of the cable has more effect than resistance, that means that at some frequency the impedance (that is, volts per ampere) dropped in the inductance is larger than the volts per ampere in the cable resistance. This is easy to measure with good lab equipment, but the inductance of the cable is also highly variable depending on how the wires are physically arranged - side by side, twisted together, coiled in a helix, and so on.

Also think about the cross over, there is always a cap in series with the speaker, speaker has inductance, cable has inductance, both in series with the capacitor will make a series resonance circuit.

This is very true. However,
(1) The exact frequency of the resonances (there will likely be more than one) make a big difference on whether they can possibly affect audio.
(2) A resonant circuit's effect is highly dependent on any damping; a speaker itself is quite an energy-eater, so it may well over damp the resonance of the cable, crossover, etc. - or under damp it at some frequency. There is no substitute for knowing the details on an issue like this. This is why people have been trying to figure out equations and math to describe things for so long. It is well known that one horse can run faster than another horse. But WHICH ONE??? Details matter.
(3) For completion, crossovers contain inductors too. Whether the cable's capacitance/inductance is big enough to matter compared to the inductance/capacitance/resistance of the crossover and speaker can take the cable characteristics from important to uselessly tiny.

I heard one high end audiophile cable company use smaller insulated cable in parallel to make up a big cable. This make the most sense as this will give maximum surface area that you get lowest inductance and resistance.

I've heard at least one audiophile cable company use almost ANYTHING. One of them was advertising using a jacket containing water.

But yes, getting around skin effect with multiple parallel wires is a technique that's quite well known and old in the radio community. The generic term is "Litz wire", for Litzendraht (I think. It's been awhile since I saw that spelled) Whether this matters or not depends on many, many other things than the wire.

Best is to use something like a 24 Gauge magnetic wires

In general, magnetic wires are a bad idea for conducting current. The best magnetic materials have a per-unit resistance much worse than copper. Changing to iron or steel would be much, much worse than the skin effect could be.

and bundle they to make a big cable. 24 gauge is just small enough that there should have no skin effect problem.

Hmmm. Depends. There is no way to figure out how much skin effect is a problem without knowing the cable length, physical layout, speaker and crossover characteristics. Details matter.

I believe everything has a reason, not just because some guru said so.

You are very wise. Humans will do or say almost anything. The real universe has certain laws and principles that are true no matter what humans say. Back at my last EE job, we used to say "You can't bullsh*t electrons.", indicating that they will do what the Universe's rules say, no matter what you want to tell people.

[Alan0354]

Alan, forgive me for the form of this reply, but in matters like this, it is important to do the detail analysis to have an informed view of what is happening. Otherwise, it is just an opinion, not an informed one.


And this is one of those issues. Ohms never change - an ohm is one volt per ampere. Resistance is (ideally!) frequency independent, so 1 ohm *resistive* is the same from DC to daylight. Inductive and capacitance both have reactive impedances, which vary directly with frequency. These impedances (how many volts drop across the part per ampere of current flow) do change with frequency, in a predictable way.
Reactance are in ohms also, you can calculate reactance of inductor as ohms also. Remember Z=R+jX where X is in ohm, it is just 90 deg out of phase in complex number. And this is no constant with frequency.

I'd have to go verify the number, so this is without my doing the math - my bad! - but the important issue is whether a skin depth of 0.6mm changes the resistance, inductance, and/or capacitance of the wires enough in comparison to the speaker's own impedances to make a difference. Many speakers, for instance, have several ohms of resistance, ignoring for the moment the internal inductances and capacitances, and changing the speaker lead resistance by small amounts causes very, very little change in the voltage or current delivered to the speaker.
Skin depth δ=1/α where α= sqrt{πufσ} where π=3.1416, u= 4πX10EE-7 and conductance σ of copper is 5.8X10EE7.
Yes the speaker is say 8Ω, but even if you add a fraction of 1Ω will change particular if there is a phase change due to the inductance. As I said, I have not done calculation but this can all come to play. I have to look up the formula of inductance of the wire with frequency. and reactance of the inductance is 2πfL.

I'm not clear on what you meant here. Humans - well, young humans with good hearing that has not been damaged by loud sounds, anyway - can hear up close to 20kHz. Not all humans can hear that.

Humans may be able to feel electricity at various levels of perception from DC up to megahertz. The (literal!!) skin effect forces the currents to the outside of humans like any conductor at high frequencies. So lighting strikes are often conducted solely through skin. I'd have to go look up the variation of human feeling with frequency.
I am referring to the vibration. I was told human skin can feel the vibration beyond the audible frequency. If you look at the skin depth fomular, the depth is inverse proportional to the sqrt of the conductance. Human body has low conductance, so the depth is quite deep. So you don't look at this the same way. that's the reason a poor conductor has no skin effect.

The problem with this is that to humans, the biggest sensitivity to sounds is down in the 1-3kHz range, not up at the top. I'd have a hard time saying what frequency is most important to humans.


This is one of those things that needs detail analysis to figure out. If the inductance of the cable has more effect than resistance, that means that at some frequency the impedance (that is, volts per ampere) dropped in the inductance is larger than the volts per ampere in the cable resistance. This is easy to measure with good lab equipment, but the inductance of the cable is also highly variable depending on how the wires are physically arranged - side by side, twisted together, coiled in a helix, and so on.
As I said I have not done the research deeply, I just suggested that those could be a factor. You don't coil the cable don't you? They usually comes in pairs side by side. If you do not coil them and tangle them up, it is not going to make that much difference. We are not looking at magnetic field radiating out, just the simple self inductance. If you don't form a coil, it is approx a single turn coil no matter how you snake it.
Yes, I think if there is enough money in the field to do research, you will get the answer. There are paper written by monster cable also, if you are interested, you can read them.

This is very true. However,
(1) The exact frequency of the resonances (there will likely be more than one) make a big difference on whether they can possibly affect audio.
(2) A resonant circuit's effect is highly dependent on any damping; a speaker itself is quite an energy-eater, so it may well over damp the resonance of the cable, crossover, etc. - or under damp it at some frequency. There is no substitute for knowing the details on an issue like this. This is why people have been trying to figure out equations and math to describe things for so long. It is well known that one horse can run faster than another horse. But WHICH ONE??? Details matter.
Just because speakers take energy and low impedance, don't mean it is always over damp. You are an EE, you should be familiar in close loop stability, and it can be over, under or critical damped. You have to use poles and zeros to look at the phase shift and how the amplifier react and stability. The speaker don't just suck signal and the signal disappear.

(3) For completion, crossovers contain inductors too. Whether the cable's capacitance/inductance is big enough to matter compared to the inductance/capacitance/resistance of the crossover and speaker can take the cable characteristics from important to uselessly tiny.

The tweeter don't have an inductor in series. The cable will be the only inductance in series from the amp to the tweeter.

I've heard at least one audiophile cable company use almost ANYTHING. One of them was advertising using a jacket containing water.

But yes, getting around skin effect with multiple parallel wires is a technique that's quite well known and old in the radio community. The generic term is "Litz wire", for Litzendraht (I think. It's been awhile since I saw that spelled) Whether this matters or not depends on many, many other things than the wire.
So you should know the idea. Yes those Litz wire work for high frequency but they are running in much higher impedance. You have to remember speakers are very low impedance. If you calculate the skin effect, most of the larger solid wire is not conducting current in the center.

In general, magnetic wires are a bad idea for conducting current. The best magnetic materials have a per-unit resistance much worse than copper. Changing to iron or steel would be much, much worse than the skin effect could be.
No it is not, magnetic wires are copper wires use in motor etc. What I meant magnetic wires are like those used for winding pickups or motors.

Hmmm. Depends. There is no way to figure out how much skin effect is a problem without knowing the cable length, physical layout, speaker and crossover characteristics. Details matter.
Yes, but it is a factor, you can calculate the true cross section area of the wire and use the conductance to calculate. But as I said, I think the inductance is more important because it change phase.

You are very wise. Humans will do or say almost anything. The real universe has certain laws and principles that are true no matter what humans say. Back at my last EE job, we used to say "You can't bullsh*t electrons.", indicating that they will do what the Universe's rules say, no matter what you want to tell people.

As I repeatedly said I have never done the calculation as this is not my interest, I just point out a few things that can make a difference. But I do know electromagnetics and all these is explained in the electromagnetics in terms of wire inductance, skin effect. There might be other factor that I am not aware of that come into play. But as I said, this is from observation to proposed theory, not the other way around. I can only tell you that until you use a very high quality audiophile system, you can laugh. I was a non believer, even up to the Kef speakers which is beyond the Polk and Klipch by a mile. Most people never see this if they only have the normal surround sound home theater system that is only two or three thousand dollars. You are an EE, you can add more into this. I know the change is very small, but human can hear very tiny difference.

You know hearing is log scale and small little change in low level can be perceived as big changes, that's the reason why people can hear a slight change in circuit when instruments cannot pick up. I designed the front end of phase array ultra sound medical scanner with color doppler in the 80s and we have signal dynamic range of over 100dB. We need to display on the screen that has dynamic range of 40dB(100:1 black to white). We use logarithmic amp to compress the image so we can display the 100+dB onto a screen. You can see the fine detail of the low level signal. Human ears are like that, it is more sensitive than any instrument and can hear the smallest little difference. That is also the reason you cannot judge the amp by the distortion spec. An amp with no distortion will sound clinical. The right distortion even at very low level can make a difference between a $5000+ power amp to a $800 Good Guys special.

[Enzo]

You have no interest in calculation, but without it how can you know if the particular issue matters?

For example, if we posit that the inductance of the cable has some reactive influence, all well and good, but at what frequency, how much? What if we find it rolls off the frequencies above 60kHz 0.12db? Well, that is an effect, but certainly not an audible one. We cannot assume the effect we discuss has any audible effect without either calculating it or measuring it.

[Steve Conner]

Let's have a reality check here.

OK, so thicker speaker wires can possibly make a slight difference to the sound. But ponder that the speaker voice coils contain about 100 feet of really thin magnet wire, which is unarguably "in the signal path".

Monster cable is a pile of overpriced crap. Any papers published by Monster are best used as toilet paper.

Hi-fi amps with negligible distortion do not sound "clinical". Distortion can improve the subjective sound quality, so an amp that has none can sound a little flat, but once you get used to it, you get a better stereo image, and you can hear little details in the music that you never noticed before. Well, maybe some people would call that clinical.

But only an audiophile would pay 5 grand to get some nice sounding distortion that most of us here could copy with a couple of JFETs.

Lastly, since when was $3k "not enough" to enjoy music? That seems awfully elitist to me.

[Alan0354]

Let's have a reality check here.

OK, so thicker speaker wires can possibly make a slight difference to the sound. But ponder that the speaker voice coils contain about 100 feet of really thin magnet wire, which is unarguably "in the signal path".

Monster cable is a pile of overpriced crap. Any papers published by Monster are best used as toilet paper.
I never said using monster cable, I am talking about using big cable with fine strands. I got it from OSH 12 Gauge speaker cable.
Hi-fi amps with negligible distortion do not sound "clinical". Distortion can improve the subjective sound quality, so an amp that has none can sound a little flat, but once you get used to it, you get a better stereo image, and you can hear little details in the music that you never noticed before. Well, maybe some people would call that clinical.

But only an audiophile would pay 5 grand to get some nice sounding distortion that most of us here could copy with a couple of JFETs.

Lastly, since when was $3k "not enough" to enjoy music? That seems awfully elitist to me.

Well, you have to listen to one to tell. Yes, it make a great difference whether you think it's elitist or not, some people just like audiophile and willing to pay for that, nothing more than people paying $4000 or more for a 59 Bassman. You ask some amateur and they cannot tell the difference from a Fender amp or some junk amp. You have to know how to listen just like the guitar expert that can tell right away. With your logic, you can say people are elitist for wanting a Marshall Plexi where a cheapy Crate can make just as loud and decent sound. It is what it is. If you don't believe it, I can't convince you. As I repeat, I am not the type that believe in black magic and voodoo, everything has a reason.

Yes I don't think this is high tech and people can copy just like so many people copy and improve a little on Fender and Marshall. Problem is most don't make it just like all the brands comes and goes. There is no money in the field except Fender, Peavey and Marshall. In fact I found people in the guitar amp pretty much copy each other, nothing innovation.

I have not been in this amp and guitar effect for a long time, only one or two years in the 70s and a few months now, but I have been designing analog circuits for a long time. It is not hard to study and catch up. I read quite a few schematics lately and I am surprised how little things change. The only one that actually impressed me is the simple little Fuzz Face. The way the two transistor interact with each other. And that was designed almost 50 years ago!!!

[Alan0354]

You have no interest in calculation, but without it how can you know if the particular issue matters?

For example, if we posit that the inductance of the cable has some reactive influence, all well and good, but at what frequency, how much? What if we find it rolls off the frequencies above 60kHz 0.12db? Well, that is an effect, but certainly not an audible one. We cannot assume the effect we discuss has any audible effect without either calculating it or measuring it.

Did you see that I was making some propose ideas only, this is what I think happened but it might be a lot more complicated that I don't want to spend the time just for a debate. But the sound difference is true as I did A B comparison. If you don't believe it, it's up to you. It is what it is. Just like some people have good ears to tell even what battery is used in the effect box and some people cannot tell a Marshall Plexi from a cheapy amp.

Talk to me about how to make a solid state amp sound like a Marshall Plexi then I am willing to spend the time to look into all the theory.

[Alan0354]

Don't be too sure that human cannot hear the 0.1dB difference. As I explained about the human ears hears logarithmic scale just like the example I gave about the Ultra Sound front end that we use log amp to compress the signal to map 100+dB dynamic range to 40dB screen. You can see all the fine detail of the heart valves and blood flow. If you put on linear scale, you don't see anything as the signals are too small deep down the body. This is the magic of logarithmic scale. You cannot think linear.

[leadfootdriver]

So, are you saying my Monsta PRO 3500 doesn't do anything? Does it at least filter spikes?

[R.G.]

Did you see that I was making some propose ideas only, this is what I think happened but it might be a lot more complicated that I don't want to spend the time just for a debate. But the sound difference is true as I did A B comparison. If you don't believe it, it's up to you. It is what it is. Just like some people have good ears to tell even what battery is used in the effect box and some people cannot tell a Marshall Plexi from a cheapy amp.

There is a solidly-researched fact about human perception from people who are experts in the field and who are willing to put in the detail time to research it: that is, doing a simple A-B comparison for yourself is not a reliable means to detect which is better, or even if there is a difference. The researchers are researchers into human sensory perception and psychology. The expectation effects and preconceived biases in a human - any human - prevent A-B testing from being reliable. The testing needs to be double-blind testing between A, B, and neither (or a third, not-being-tested case) to be valid. Humans cannot set aside their unconscious prejudices, even when they want to and know about the unconscious biases as a problem.

Yes: some people cannot tell a Marshall Plexi from a cheapy amp; but no human can be completely unbiased about sensory data, especially hearing effects.

Talk to me about how to make a solid state amp sound like a Marshall Plexi then I am willing to spend the time to look into all the theory.

“When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarely, in your thoughts advanced to the stage of science.”
― Sir William Thomson, Lord Kelvin

When numbers are knowable, willful disregard of the numbers amounts to willful disregard of the knowledge.

Also:

Talk to me about how to make a solid state amp sound like a Marshall Plexi then I am willing to spend the time to look into all the theory.

Hmmm. OK, I've thought about it. I know how to make a solid state amp sound exactly like a Marshall Plexi, or an AC30, or an [insert any amp here]. No, I'm not making this up, I saw the device at a recent trade show, saw several professional guitarists and touring musicians try it out and be astonished by it.

In concept, it's done with resistors, capacitors, inductors, diodes, and transistors in some combination. Exactly how many and what value of each of these is details and theory I'm not interested in.

8-)

[Alan0354]

So, are you saying my Monsta PRO 3500 doesn't do anything? Does it at least filter spikes?

I don't know what you are talking about.

[Mark Black]

I don't know what you are talking about.

It's probably a Monster (brand name) PRO3500 power conditioner/sequencer.

[Alan0354]

I don't know what you are talking about.

It's probably a Monster (brand name) PRO3500 power conditioner/sequencer.

I don't know anything about this, I don't buy into the Monster cable are better. I talk mainly about large cable with fine strands like the Monster cable, not the Monster Cable. I ain't going to pay big money for the Monster Cable for their nonsense. But I am a true believer of big cable for speakers. I bought mine from a hardware store called OSH that sell Monster cable look alike for small fraction of the price. The surface of the strands are all oxidized through the years and turned green. This is even better in my book because the oxide create an insulation coating between strands and give me more surface area!!!!

[Jazz P Bass]

So, are you saying my Monsta PRO 3500 doesn't do anything? Does it at least filter spikes?

Spike filter is a good description.
Link: PRO 3500 Rack Mountable PowerCenter™ with Clean Power™ Stage 3
It appears that there is more to the 3500 than a power strip surge suppressor.

[Jazz P Bass]

I don't know anything about this, I don't buy into the Monster cable are better. I talk mainly about large cable with fine strands like the Monster cable, not the Monster Cable. I ain't going to pay big money for the Monster Cable for their nonsense. But I am a true believer of big cable for speakers. I bought mine from a hardware store called OSH that sell Monster cable look alike for small fraction of the price. The surface of the strands are all oxidized through the years and turned green. This is even better in my book because the oxide create an insulation coating between strands and give me more surface area!!!!

Alan
Please read this article.
Link: Cables, Interconnects and Other Stuff - The Truth

[soundguruman]

The manual and manufacturer give absolutely no specifications. Typical of "Monster"
The unit supplies all power through a 10 amp fuse.
It's basically a glorified outlet strip, with digital meters, and a goose neck lamp jack.
It only filters spikes when the spike exceeds the rating of the MOVs.
Since we don't know that rating (unpublished) we can't accurately answer the question.

I have E mailed monster several times asking for specifications and lab test results, they never answer.
I have also asked them to provide any technical reports that verify any of the claims that they make about their products, and they never answer.