Basic amp Qs Volume/ gain/ MV.

[g1]

Your system (amp on 10, adjust volume from guitar) will not give equal levels of loudness for your different guitar settings. That is why players will not accept doing it this way. Surely you have tried this for yourself? Either the clean setting will be too quiet or the dirty/distorted setting will be much louder than the clean setting.
Most players who use a range of sounds want the relative loudness of their clean and dirty levels to be the same, or close.

[Sea Chief]

I love the clean sound of a Fender. I think a Hot Rod DeVille sounds good. But I also think Fender can't design an overdrive channel to save their souls. The drive channel on that same DeVille sounds like crap to me.

WHy doesn't everyone do anything? because everyone does not agree on what sounds good.



Really? Is Beef Wellington better than a hamburger? Is prime rib roast better than a hamburger? I think the majority of us think so. And yet how many of us still enjoy a hamburger? I bet an equally large percentage. There are guys who have poked a bunch of pencil holes in their speaker cones to get a real ratty distorted tone. Van Halen experimented with using a device to dial his mains voltage WAY low to get a different distortion from the amp. he called it his "brown sound."

When you have one volume knob on a simple amp, you can turn the amp up until you get distortion. SOMETHING in the amp is distorting. You really don;t know what. COuld be one stage, could be several. Unless you go in and electrically analyze it, you won;t know. By putting a level control between each stage, you get the ability to determine which parts of the amp distort and which do not.

Listen to Eddie Van Halen's sound. Does he sound the same as Brian May? Does Jimi Hendrix? Mark Knofler? A little gritty overdrive is one thing, and serious distortion is another. There is no universal guitar tone that everyone adores. An amplifier like the PV 5150 doesn;t even have a clean channel. The "clean" on it is simple less distorted than the other channels. And yet many players still add a distortion pedal out front of it , just to add a different distorted character to the sound.

Yes but we are all dining at the captain's table here, not scrimping off of a tramps' twaddle (i dont know what that is either). If we have the choice we -all- will have the steak over the hamburger every time. Unless retarded, gums etc etc. And so I would say the majority of us GTR nerds want what Im talking of from the amp ie -not specifically- BMay's sound, but rather a ~20w amp from clean to its maximum ie clean to crunchy, to super-crunchy max OD over a clean amp + od pedal + distortion pedal. I mean there's ok pedals but its chalk and cheese really isnt it?). Each different amp will have a different sonic signature an ac30 with be honkier and grittier than a springier Super Reverb, or a harder 18w plexi thing.. but essentially and for the purposes of my point, they are all three in the same ballpark ie clean tone on 1/ dirty'ish on 5/ super crunchy on 10.

There is only one Brown Sound- and that is Dean Ween: no-one gets any brownier than he.

I think talking of the difference between Hendrix to BMay t EVH is not really what Im talking about here. EVH's wailing suoer-smooth sounds like a bland pedal to me. Henderix and MAy used amp diatortion mostly, but there are fuzz pedals involved so not really what Im on about on this thread.

[The Dude]

With respect, Sea Chief:

You ask in your first post why the need for a gain/master volume configuration. Several logical answers have been given (distortion at low volume, volume matching from channel to channel, etc.) yet you continue to "hammer home" your view that it's an undesirable idea? What's the point? Plenty of people like the master volume thing. Plenty of people do not prefer it. It's simply a choice not unlike having the choice to buy a Marshall or a Fender or anything else. I can't see how continuing to argue this is getting anywhere. It's like arguing which is better, the red car or the blue car?

[defaced]

You like steak, I like salmon. Equally good quality, but not at all the same. Different goals, different tools, different roads to get there, and all of them correct because, after all, music is art.

[Sea Chief]

I love the clean sound of a Fender. I think a Hot Rod DeVille sounds good. But I also think Fender can't design an overdrive channel to save their souls. The drive channel on that same DeVille sounds like crap to me

When you have one volume knob on a simple amp, you can turn the amp up until you get distortion. SOMETHING in the amp is distorting. You really don;t know what. COuld be one stage, could be several. Unless you go in and electrically analyze it, you won;t know. By putting a level control between each stage, you get the ability to determine which parts of the amp distort and which do not.

.

Yes the fender clean I have is v good (the other channel so dreadful I cant believe it) it seems obvious fender cant design a good gain channel. And tbh why on earth would they want to?? why would anyone want that ? another thing I dont understand! but Im not so interested in this gain channel its gimmicky to me.

But look tell me this then, re the Deville (I assume ~30w or roughly so) why if its 'dirty' channel is so bad, and it clean channel cranked to 10 is so good in comparison (albeit cannot get that ultra high 'Very Metal' gain sound I find soncally disinteresting & usually sharp and 2-D/ a typical fender 'dirty' channel then) why isnt there simply an extra volume knob added to this clean channel (god only knows which 'stage' of the amp but just lets call it another vol for simplicitys sake) that can control the clean channel overall volume coupled with the existing vol knob??

Surely that would be overwhelmingly better soundwise than some tizzy 'channel 2/ !wow / distortion!' channel no-one finds has any 'fendery' sound to it at all as its rubbish.

I still dont understand. Many eg's given here to me is akin to 'saying some find cheap watery 5% vol kids wine preferable to a fine Aussie Shiraz'. It just doesnt compute.

[Sea Chief]

With respect, Sea Chief:

You ask in your first post why the need for a gain/master volume configuration. Several logical answers have been given (distortion at low volume, volume matching from channel to channel, etc.) yet you continue to "hammer home" your view that it's an undesirable idea? What's the point? Plenty of people like the master volume thing. Plenty of people do not prefer it. It's simply a choice not unlike having the choice to buy a Marshall or a Fender or anything else. I can't see how continuing to argue this is getting anywhere. It's like arguing which is better, the red car or the blue car?

Not at all. If it was to me as simple as the red or the blue car I wouldnt be at all confused, but to me there is such huge difference its like saying some guys prefers the fiat500 and other guys prefer the ferrari 360 (or some guys prefer the fender gain wowiezowie channel with vol xy&z and some guys prefer a Super Reverb, with one vol knob, cranked). Its chalk and cheese. It still just doesn't compute & so I am still finding this subject, and why amps are made like they are, very hard to comprehend ok? So Im not 'hammering home' anything, Im putting scenarios by way of trying to understand so folks can see what Im on about ok.. if you find it frustrating- go elsewhere.

[g1]

I still dont understand. Many eg's given here to me is akin to 'saying some find cheap watery 5% vol kids wine preferable to a fine Aussie Shiraz'. It just doesnt compute.

The idea that anyone could have a different opinion than yours doesn't seem to compute either (unless they are what you call "retards").
It's becoming difficult to take you seriously. The examples given are nothing like your wine comparison.
Sorry to say, but it seems like you are joking/trolling here.

[The Dude]

if you find it frustrating- go elsewhere.

1) I am sorry that you apparently took offense to my post.
2) "if you find it frustrating". I don't find it frustrating. I find it a pointless argument that can never be resolved because it comes down to opinion. There is no "better".
3) "go elsewhere". Consider it done. There is nothing to learn from this conversation anyway.

[Sea Chief]

1) I am sorry that you apparently took offense to my post.
2) "if you find it frustrating". I don't find it frustrating. I find it a pointless argument that can never be resolved because it comes down to opinion. There is no "better".
3) "go elsewhere". Consider it done. There is nothing to learn from this conversation anyway.

Yes! there is better!!

Look, there is -clearly- better between a fiat500 and a ferrari: no guy 'prefers' the fiat do they? similarly no-one prefers a tizzy gain channel distortion to the rich harmonic tones of a cranked amp, surely? do they? (but folks keep saying, yes they do.. so either I must be missing something or/ forgive me if Im confused on this ok? there -must be a reason Im missing thats all).

Ok so why say isnt there another volume on the Deville's clean channel, that would facilitate using the vol1 up to 10, and this added vol2 to control thie loudness of vol1?? instead they likely (as I see countless amps all of which Id consider useably useless in this config ie clean channel stays clean until window-shattering levels when the interesting tones start, so you cant use it/ and a dirty channel thats just rubbish: just like my fender) keep vol1 only so you can only achieve all that rich goodness at ear-splitting levels (ie rarely) and they add another useless pishy "Xtreme/ HotRod" gain channel nonsense. I just dont get the logic of the design, ok?

[Enzo]

OK, you don't like EVH tone, but I and many other do, and for that matter EVH likes it. I brought up those guys not to try to convince you they have great tone you should like, but to demonstrate that great players do not come close to agreeing on the ideal tone. EVH sounds nothing like Jimi who sounds nothing like Eric Johnson who sounds nothing like Knofler who sounds nothing like Clapton, and they are ALL top players.


I like salmon too. I dine in a restaurant every night, literally. I in fact buy salmon reasonably often. I have not bought a steak in years, unless you count prime rib as steak. And many nights I do indeed want a hamburger instead of something fancier. I appreciate fine vintage wine, and yet many nights I prefer a simple cold beer. And that is whwy amps are made with multiple channels, because a lot of better players don't want to sound the same on every song.

re the Deville (I assume ~30w or roughly so) why if its 'dirty' channel is so bad, and it clean channel cranked to 10 is so good in comparison (albeit cannot get that ultra high 'Very Metal' gain sound I find soncally disinteresting & usually sharp and 2-D/ a typical fender 'dirty' channel then) why isnt there simply an extra volume knob added to this clean channel (god only knows which 'stage' of the amp but just lets call it another vol for simplicitys sake) that can control the clean channel overall volume coupled with the existing vol knob??

For reference, the HRDeVille is a 60 watt amp.

The simple answer is that it is because the clean channel sounds so good and the dirt channel sounds so bad IN MY OPINION. Fender doesn;t think it sounds bad, and I know players who like that dirt channel. I couldn;t tell you why, but they do. I hate it, but that is only my opinion. I don't care for Marshall amps, they sound shrill. I just overhauled an old Ampeg B18N, and the sound from that is straight from God. How far you think I'd get telling the world I think their Marshall amps are crap? And that B18 I love, how hard do you think James Hetfield would laugh at that? SOme guys play in blues bands and that's all they play, but I think geez, another 12-bar in A, give me something with more complexity? But all those are opinions.

Adding another control to the clean channel would only let you turn it down further. KNobs don;t add any gain. There is an entire extra triode stage to make the gain channel gainier in the DeVille.

[Sea Chief]

Look I am really sorry if I seem stupid but honestly Im utterly confused still. Take the Deville (forget the silly channel 2 stuff I have no interest in this). If I turn the clean channel vol to 10 it distorts/breaks up/od's/whatever the term is. I can then get the full cranked sound -can I not- by simply turning the GTR vol down?

[I need to break this down- call me thick I dont care but I must/ want to understand whats going on].

[Sea Chief]

OK, you don't like EVH tone, but I and many other do, and for that matter EVH likes it. I brought up those guys not to try to convince you they have great tone you should like, but to demonstrate that great players do not come close to agreeing on the ideal tone. EVH sounds nothing like Jimi who sounds nothing like Eric Johnson who sounds nothing like Knofler who sounds nothing like Clapton, and they are ALL top players.


I like salmon too. I dine in a restaurant every night, literally. I in fact buy salmon reasonably often. I have not bought a steak in years, unless you count prime rib as steak. And many nights I do indeed want a hamburger instead of something fancier. I appreciate fine vintage wine, and yet many nights I prefer a simple cold beer. And that is whwy amps are made with multiple channels, because a lot of better players don't want to sound the same on every song.



For reference, the HRDeVille is a 60 watt amp.

The simple answer is that it is because the clean channel sounds so good and the dirt channel sounds so bad IN MY OPINION. Fender doesn;t think it sounds bad, and I know players who like that dirt channel. I couldn;t tell you why, but they do. I hate it, but that is only my opinion. I don't care for Marshall amps, they sound shrill. I just overhauled an old Ampeg B18N, and the sound from that is straight from God. How far you think I'd get telling the world I think their Marshall amps are crap? And that B18 I love, how hard do you think James Hetfield would laugh at that? SOme guys play in blues bands and that's all they play, but I think geez, another 12-bar in A, give me something with more complexity? But all those are opinions.

Adding another control to the clean channel would only let you turn it down further. KNobs don;t add any gain. There is an entire extra triode stage to make the gain channel gainier in the DeVille.

Ok Deville is too poweful as a good eg- tho surely it still distorts/breaks up/od's/whatever its called and sounds great.

But Enzo look Im not wanting to know why one guy sounds different to another. Mr Marshall axeman may very well laugh at your sweet fender amp at vol7, as his marshall at vol7 has more edge and bite and attitude and all that (crap- we agree & Id love to hear yr ampeg!) BUT in principle for me to undertand the basics here of natural vol interaction: they're the same. IE Your 20w fender at vol7 is distorting/breaking up/od'ing/ whatever its called precisely (and has a warmth). Axman's 18w Marshall at vol7 is distorting too (and sounds harsh and crap). And 'our' Brian's AC30 at vol7 is doing the same (sound signature-wise sort of midway between the two). They sound different because they are made by different amp makers > different gtrs> different players that's all. My eg can be -anyone whatsoever for an eg- with a say a 15-25w amp it just doesnt matter. Its the interaction of 1) the amp turned 'up' and 2) the GTR vol and 3) s'how controlling the overall volume of these I am trying to understand. The amps "signiture sound" be it honky vox, spitty marshall, or sumptous fender is entirely irrelevant, as are GTRists who (for whatever confounding reason I will never know) prefer instead of the natural/ organical 'amp turned up' od sound a distortion pedal instead.

[Dave H]

Originally guitar amps were designed to be played clean and Leo even advertised Fender amps as ‘undistorted’ never thinking that distortion would be desirable but times have changed and modern guitar amps are designed to produce any level of distortion at any volume. To achieve this they have to generate the distortion in the preamp which isn’t great if you prefer power amp distortion which comes at ear-splitting levels (as you said). A pot can’t be added to reduce the volume of the distorting power amp because there isn’t anywhere to put it (a 1W pot can’t control a 50W amp) but a high power attenuator between the amp and speaker can or a smaller amp could be used with a mic into the PA system.

The reason Brian May can do it all from his guitar is because he uses a VOX AC30 (or three). He uses the low gain Normal channel with a Boost/Bass cut pedal. Nearly all the distortion will be the power amp which as it is cathode biased with no negative feedback compresses like mad. There is little volume difference between clean and distorted as he turns up his guitar vol pot (it is acting more like a tone control). This is fine if you need 100W of AC30 through 6 speakers but if you only play in the local pubs as I do then you have to downsize, even one AC30 is too loud but a Normal channel ‘AC15’ with one speaker is perfect. This probably won’t work as well with a high power Fender as it will be fixed bias with negative feedback and won’t compress as much as an AC30
.
There are many ways to achieve ‘any level of distortion at any volume’ and they are all a compromise, just pick the one that sounds best to you.

[Dave H]

...Take the Deville (forget the silly channel 2 stuff I have no interest in this). If I turn the clean channel vol to 10 it distorts/breaks up/od's/whatever the term is. I can then get the full cranked sound -can I not- by simply turning the GTR vol down?

If your aim is to get the same cranked tone at a lower volume then you can't do it by turning the guitar vol down, the amp will just clean up.

[Enzo]

I don't want to belabor it, but you were telling us no one would want anything but your ideal amp setup, and I offered a bunch of guys who WANT to sound totally different from one another as a matter of course. My point was that there is no universally desired tone. What one man thinks is best, another man does not.


Overdrive in an amp means playing something into it that is too loud for it, so it distorts. If the input of your amp can handle up to 5 volts of signal sounding clean, and if you feed the amp 10 volts, that is 5v more than it can handle so it distorts. OVER-driving. If you turn your amp all the way up but don;t play anything, it makes no sound. (ignoring any background noise) Even all the way up, if you just very lightly pick a string, it won;t be loud. If you strum the strings HARD, then it gets real loud. The amp only distorts when you overdrive it. When you turn the guitar down, you are feeding the amp less. It won;t distort the same because you are not driving the circuit as hard, you are feeding the amp less.

Turning an amp up does not in and of itself make distortion. it only increases how much it amplifies. If the amp has an amplification of 3 times (I am making this example up) and you feed it 5v, then it makes 15v at the output. If I feed it 10v, it makes 30v at the output. Now let me say this imaginary amp only has a 20v power source. It can;t make more than 20v. If I sent the amp 5v, it makes 15 and has room to spare. But if I feed the amp 10v, it wants to make 30v, but it can only make 20v, so it can;t faithfully amplify my 10v. SO the result is a distorted output. We say we ran out of headroom. SO if I turn up my guitar so it makes 10v to send to the amp, it will come out as a distorted 20v. But if I turn down the guitar so it only produces 5v and feed that to the amp, the amp has headroom for that and sounds clean.