Basic amp Qs Volume/ gain/ MV.

[km6xz]

It is is Italian, Red is better.

[km6xz]

I doubt you want all these answers of "it depends" but it really really DOES depend on subjective taste in how well it replicates the sonic characteristics of what taught you to like a particular sound style. Something taught you, you did not wake up one day and seek out a specific sound that you have never heard before. Usually that teaching came in the form of a single song that really impacted you, and it just happen to have a distinctive sound that you had now heard before.
What you call great tone might not be even desirable if not part of a great song. From that point on, you have an affinity for aural clues that remind of experience of that first song, maybe not the song itself but the emotional response to it.
The best way to get killer sound is to find songs that impact you that just happen to have sonic characteristics that are common to what you already have.

Tone does not make a song, a great song is seldom detracted from by peculiar or even unpleasant tone, but great tone never makes a bad song great. A great performance however can overcome tone and in some ways, a bad song.
So who is listening to your tone? Only you? If so, you only have to care about what you get so experiment until you are happy. A good way to make tones sound good no matter what is to improve the material and improve the musical craftsmanship. Working on those will give more and longer lasting dividends than any tweaks of amps or guitars. They are more time consuming but are free.
Alas, if you prefer to chase tone as the first step, you will spend a lot more money, be a lot more frustrated, and never advance in the important elements of playing music that is pleasurable to listen to...material and craft. The better you are in both of these latter traits, the less tone matters.
Even if you come up with a bizarre irritating sound, but wrap it around a great song and great playing, you will find many tone chasers suddenly trying to get "your tone". Have you spent more on lessons than gear in the last year? If so, you are on the right track, if not, than sorry, few people but your GF or mother will every care about your tone.

[Steve Conner]

he seems to simplify things so much that he simply gets his clean sound with GTR on 1, OD on with GTR on 4, and May-tastic distortion with GTR on 10... There ---has--- to be a reason why this is not universally used by all of us

It works fine for me! The only drawback is that it's hard to get a really big variation in tonal range. The clean sound will still be somewhat distorted, and the "May-tastic distortion" won't be the kind of extreme gain that would suit a metal lead guitarist. It will also be extremely loud, unless the amp is very small or has been modified to break up at low volume.

Many guitarists prefer a really big contrast between their "clean" tone and their "dirty" one. For instance, a metal guitarist might use two completely separate amps: a Roland JC120 for the clean passages, and a Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier for the heavy bits.

Setting it out as clearly as I can: A non-master volume amp will always "break up" at the same volume as perceived by you in the room. If you crank it up till it distorts, and it's too loud, you can't reduce the volume by turning down the guitar. You will just reduce the distortion ("clean it up") instead, and only when it has become clean will it start to get quieter.

A master volume amp has an additional volume control placed after the part of the amp that "breaks up". This allows you to have the distorted sound at whatever volume you choose. A purist will claim that this doesn't sound as good as a cranked non-MV amp, but for many of us the price is worth paying to have the convenience. (Marshall seem to agree as they have been making a very popular series of master volume amps since the 70s.)

The thing to understand is that the amp's master volume control has a different effect to the guitar volume control, because the MV is placed after the circuit inside the amp that generates the distortion, but the guitar volume is before it. The MV is your "Squier volume knob in a box".

An attenuator (power soak etc) is just another kind of master volume control that goes after the entire amp. The Squier volume knob in a box again.

Note I use "distort" and "break up" synonymously.

[Sea Chief]

The thing to understand is that the amp's master volume control has a different effect to the guitar volume control.................... The MV is your "Squier volume knob in a box".

An attenuator (power soak etc) is just another kind of master volume control that goes after the entire amp. The Squier volume knob in a box again.

.

So here you say plus an attenuator/ all 3 are effectively the same (A Squier knob-in-box is your MV) but "MV has a different effect to the guitar volume control". So they are not the same? In the same sentence- now Im thoughraly confused.

[Sea Chief]

Ok let me try and boil down a Q.

Please tell me why [apart from the fact that the circuit just doesnt have one, or there is no room on the chrom faceplate for one] why does a simple tweed 5E3 circuit (which breaks up/od's/distorts/whatever the term is at max vol 10) not have an additional volume control so the distorted/od/broken up/whatever its called sound at 10 can be heard at room levels, and not -just- earsplitting levels?? I knowthe originals were not designed to be played in break-up/od/distorted/whatever the term is settings.. but once fender knew this sound was gooood, why did they not simply add an extra vol to do as I describe later?? or even why are no relica circuits have one as a matter of course??

I need to work from the basics up- Im more confused that I was on all this now!

[Alex R]

Ok let me try and boil down a Q.

Please tell me why [apart from the fact that the circuit just doesnt have one, or there is no room on the chrom faceplate for one] why does a simple tweed 5E3 circuit (which breaks up/od's/distorts/whatever the term is at max vol 10) not have an additional volume control so the distorted/od/broken up/whatever its called sound at 10 can be heard at room levels, and not -just- earsplitting levels?? I knowthe originals were not designed to be played in break-up/od/distorted/whatever the term is settings.. but once fender knew this sound was gooood, why did they not simply add an extra vol to do as I describe later?? or even why are no relica circuits have one as a matter of course??

I need to work from the basics up- Im more confused that I was on all this now!

The only place you could put such a volume control would be between the power amp and the speaker - because the distortion you want can only be had by overdriving the power amp. That's not a volume control, that's an attenuator. Alas they do tend to take away something from the sound. The reason you can't put a simple potentiometer there is that the kind of electrical power you need to drive a speaker is way too much for a normal pot. A lot of heat will be generated if you try to dial down that power and so you need an attenuator if you want a volume control after the power amp.

The Weber MASS range are good attenuators in my opinion; I have AB'd them with Marshall powerbrake and THD Hotplate for a customer, using an old Laney 60 watter. They all sounded good at relatively high volumes, but dialled down the MASS had more dynamic range we felt - at any rate it sounded 'clearer'.

Just to make it plainer - if you cut the signal with a volume control at any stage before the power tubes you will lost the distortion you want,. which is only available by letting enough signal through to overdrive the power amp. If you try to cut the volume after the power amp you will need something meaty enough to handle all that electrical power. IE an attenuator.

You seem convinced there is an easier way. There isn't!

[Steve Conner]

From an electronic engineer's point of view the guitar volume control, amp master volume and power attenuator are the same component, a variable resistor with a knob. They do completely different things because they are installed in different places in the circuit.

You could install a post-PI master volume on a 5E3, but it might affect the sound somewhat.

[Sea Chief]

The only place you could put such a volume control would be between the power amp and the speaker - because the distortion you want can only be had by overdriving the power amp. That's not a volume control, that's an attenuator. Alas they do tend to take away something from the sound. The reason you can't put a simple potentiometer there is that the kind of electrical power you need to drive a speaker is way too much for a normal pot. A lot of heat will be generated if you try to dial down that power and so you need an attenuator if you want a volume control after the power amp.

You seem convinced there is an easier way. There isn't!

Ok thanks I think I understand the basics of that explanation for the 5E3 circuit example, esp if heat is an issue (although Steve Connor says later that you could add a volume.. 'altho it might affect the sound somewhat'. So Im not entirely clear).

"You seem convinced there is an easier way".. well yes there still seems to be hence Im still confused: the very eg I posted of our Brian May. His clean sound seemed loud enough.. his break-up/od/dstortion/whatever its called midway point didnt seem to knock the guy over, so not much louder.. and his max 'man-out' fully break-up/od/distortion/whatever its called sound didnt seem so much louder either.

So yes I am convinced- the proof is right there. Understanding it is the difficulty, as it seems what folks saying here is that Mr May cannot get those sounds at relative volumes just by way of usage of this GTR vol knob. Hi is doing it right there.

[Steve Conner]

(although Steve Connor says later that you could add a volume.. 'altho it might affect the sound somewhat'. So Im not entirely clear).

A purist would say that a 5E3 modified with a master volume wasn't even a 5E3 any more, so I somewhat agree with Alex.

his break-up/od/dstortion/whatever its called midway point didnt seem to knock the guy over, so not much louder

Rock musicians tend to be pretty deaf. They are not easily "knocked over" by loud sounds.

[Sea Chief]

No the guy I refered to was the journo chap standing next to him. There was no excessive volume difference there betweem BM's clean and his '11' sound, or you would have seen some sort of reaction from the journo. All he did was grin at the '11' tone.

So where exctly would this theoretical MV nob in the 5E3 go then? I thought the essence of a 'Master' volume, and by way to of fact that it sits to the RHS usually, often far RHS.. was to be the master of the overal volume. So where would this theoretical MV go in the circuit (or can an MV be placed anywhere, and then does the name change to 'gain' or s'thing?) and what would the sound be roughly speaking, compared to the natural amp break-up/od/distortion/whatever its called sound say at (single knob/ orig circuit) vol8?

[potatofarmer]

Look, there is -clearly- better between a fiat500 and a ferrari: no guy 'prefers' the fiat do they?

You ever tried to carry home groceries in a Ferrari? Not to mention that I never even get to really open it up because I have to commute through rush hour every day.

This post has been brought to you by the Bureau of Unintentionally Apt Analogies.

[Sea Chief]

You can fit plenty of veggies and fruit in a ferrari. prolly about the same as a fiat500 theyre such tiddlers!

[Alex R]

you need a fiat 500 for some things, and SUV for others, a kiddie-bus for yet others, a transit van for further others, and for the rest only a ducati 916 will do. Definitely apt, the car analogy, but not to prove that there's only one way of having a good car.

To the OP: no way is B May's setup not going to be loud. You get the whole amp on the edge of breakup then use the guitar volume control and picking strength to go from clean to OD. Very little difference in volume but an AC30 on full chat is the only way to do it. To cut the volume you need an attenuator. I don't really believe you don't know what one of those is but if you don't it ain't hard to find out. In the process of doing so you will also discover why they are necessary if you want power amp overdrive at low volumes. This info is widely available and I am beginning to wonder why you keep on asking the same questions and getting the same answer in different forms.

[Leo_Gnardo]

But surely there is goodness and badness. Surely that is fundamental to good tone. For eg a fender tube amp's "gain/ distortion channel" if it has one uniformly sounds pretty shoddy compared to a tweed amp with no gain control at all and just the vol turned up to achieve distortion (or an AC30 turned up full). One is goodness, and one is badness. Night and day.

Ok let me ask a Q relative to this area. Why would fender on one Twin Reverb model decide to add a "Master Volume" knob? What would this be for? what does an added MV knob do?

Funny you mention the Fender MV Twin. You think "dial down the master, dial up the channel" and do that, and it sounds, well just 'orrible. Another amp from the same period, master-volume Marshall, now there's a sound we can use! The difference is how many gain stages before the MV. More in the Marshall, so a spectrum of distorted sounds can be chosen. And similar in other amps, the Fender SuperSonic has an insane gain in it's OD channel, also 4-stage Laneys, all kinds of bootique amps, and let's not fail to mention Carvin's 11-stage preamps. Some amps are better than others at getting a nice crunchy OD tone, and others more or less a failure. Back to the MV Twin, I find the only use for the MV is to dial it down to 7, which takes away some hiss & hum, and still lets you get a nice clean volume that sounds like a Twin.

Some of the other amps mentioned have fairly low power, AC30, Tweed Deluxes, like that, so it's easy to crunch their power amps.

Unless you commit to a speaker attenuator Chief, I think you're going to keep attracting the unwanted attention of your pesky neighbor. I'm not much in favor of speaker attenuators, but it may be the necessary solution for you. And earplugs for him.

[Sea Chief]

you need a fiat 500 for some things, and SUV for others, a kiddie-bus for yet others, a transit van for further others, and for the rest only a ducati 916 will do. Definitely apt, the car analogy, but not to prove that there's only one way of having a good car.

To the OP: no way is B May's setup not going to be loud. You get the whole amp on the edge of breakup then use the guitar volume control and picking strength to go from clean to OD. Very little difference in volume but an AC30 on full chat is the only way to do it. To cut the volume you need an attenuator. I don't really believe you don't know what one of those is but if you don't it ain't hard to find out. In the process of doing so you will also discover why they are necessary if you want power amp overdrive at low volumes. This info is widely available and I am beginning to wonder why you keep on asking the same questions and getting the same answer in different forms.

I dont think I suggested it wasnt going to be loud, an ac30 up full of course will be loud.. its just the differencesin that clip between his gtr vol3, 6, and 10 didnt seem to be hugely different. The journo dint suddenly gasp in volume shock between the 3 settings: they seemed relatively similar in volume.

Of course I know what an attenuator does- but it is the difference in basic design parameters.. and more to the point the difference -in sound/ tonal charcteristics relative to the overall volume eminating- between an attenuator, the various amp vol knobs, the gain knob, the gtr vol, and an MV on the amp vol I am trying to get my head around.

Its a damn sight easier with a tiddly champ with one vol knob thats for sure!! (but its sounds a bit piddly & 'toy-amp' like/ not up to par for a fine mahogany gibson IMO). At the mo Im back to a ss peavey+ a damned distortion pedal- as I just dont understand how to achieve a good valve amp sound w'out taking out half a row of houses you see or spending £150 on a f'ugly attenuator thing (they look poitively awful perched on a nice tweed amp for eg).