Basic amp Qs Volume/ gain/ MV.

[defaced]

Of course I know what an attenuator does- but it is the difference in basic design parameters.. and more to the point the differences -in sound/ tonal charcteristics relative to the overall volume eminating- between this, the gtr vol, and an MV on the amp vol I am trying to get my head around.

That's a surprisingly complex goal. I'd suggest looking up the schematics for those amps. Go find them in a store and play them. Correlate your ear to what is presented in the schematic. There is really no "simple" way to explain it because it is a giant game of "it depends" and even more annoying is that there are literally limitless variables and permutations that will have either subtle or profound effects on the sound.

[Sea Chief]

I am toying with the idea of an ac15 to get some break-up/od/distortion/whatever its called you see now (and therefore forgo my fender clean sound I will miss hugely).. but I have reservations if the MV gives it a 'fake', 'amp-up-loud' sound, whether this is its very intention, if its therefore purely really just a gimmick addition, or whether it is a serious addition. That is why one thing Im trying to figure out ie what exactly an MV does, and how it affects the sound relative to the 'proper' as I call it sound of the amp simply cranked. Is it basically designed as an approximation? is it designed as a completely different sound altogether? is an MV inherrantly 'fizzy', or are some actually very good indeed? they seem like a gimmick added (in the chinese factory no doubt now?) to intice a 13ur old boy away from choking his chicken to 'rock out' in the mirror listening to 'our Brian doing his thing.

[Sea Chief]

I am not 13 years old btw.

(although you might think so from my seemingly thick grasp on this increasingly complex subject).

[defaced]

Prototype your build and experiment. At the worst, adding a MV pot to a circuit is about 10 minutes of soldering. You'll know more in doing that than a thousand forum posts discussing the topic. One thing I can guarantee, anything you change in the circuit will by definition change the signal. Wether or not you like it is the X factor that can't be answered and why prototyping/experimenting is so important.

[Tom Phillips]

...Its a damn sight easier with a tiddly champ with one vol knob thats for sure!! (but its sounds a bit piddly & 'toy-amp' like...

Every play through a Champ connected to a large speaker cab? It's a combination that isn't practical as a commercial product but works great for people who already own equipment that they can mix & match.

[Steve Conner]

You might want to re-read my last few posts. I made an effort at explaining the differences between the guitar volume, the master volume and an attenuator.

The intention of the master volume is to let you have a good approximation of the cranked sound without blowing your head off. But still be able to blow heads off when you need to, by turning the master volume up full. It makes the amp more versatile.

An attenuator performs a similar function to a master volume, except it goes between the amp and the speaker. The master volume goes inside the amp, between the preamp and the power amp.

Edit: This thread at The Amp Garage might be relevant. http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=65052

[Leo_Gnardo]

I am toying with the idea of an ac15 to get some break-up/od/distortion/whatever.

AC-15, ah one of my all time faves! also Tom's reminder that a Champ through a big speaker sounds terrific, without much real volume.

Not to be forgot in all this - John Meyers' observation that our ears interpret distortion as power, and Fletcher-Munson who remind us that as the volume gets smaller our ears discount high and low frequencies IOW the lower you dial it the more twee the tone. How diabolical.

[Sea Chief]

Every play through a Champ connected to a large speaker cab? It's a combination that isn't practical as a commercial product but works great for people who already own equipment that they can mix & match.

Well not a 4x12 no, but I put my 12" Peavey Scorpion with my home-brew Champ head and even with either or both vols on 10 it still has that piddly 'kids toy amp' sound.. & it had barely any break-up too. At least it looks fab I think (its got a 12ax7 yes, and it has an MV I added! but I had thought it was an overall amp volume level, but actually its just a preamp volume so I read now, no wonder that amps been left idle for years).

I think Il be 90 before I get some decent break-up/od/distortion/whatever its called gtr amp sound- Ive never achieved it in 8 amps or so in 25years. Well I did -once- for just 2 minutes when I plucked up courage to to inquisitively turn my 5E3 up to get to that sweet spot.. only to find s'one asap rapping on the door, abuse and insults from a (far away- 400metres away) neighbour. God only knows how these youtube clips of folks sitting on their 5e3's in that sweet od/break-up/whatever its called decent sound. Thats something I will never understand. No attenuator there. There's even a clip of the fender guy demo'ing the 3 new 'Clapton' tweeds champ, tremolux, twin.. and all 3 he sits calmly on nattering to the interviewer in between searingly nice creamy od/break-up/whatever its called sound. H O W tf88k does he do that w'out an attenuator, and without blasting himself + the interviewer to kingdom come?! or the windows rattling.. and how on earth it was recorded too w'out the mic exploding?!

Its all remains a mystery to me- I feel like s'one's permenantly playing a prank on me re this/ always just kept the X thing back from me so Im always in the dark on the subject. Hugely frustrating.

[Steve Conner]

Have you ever been in a room with a rock drummer?

[km6xz]

Before anything, you need to disabuse yourself of the notion that anything Brian May did was related to equipment. Sure he used a lot of AC30s on stage but his "tone" was not related to why people gravitate towards his playing. He is creative, expressive, smart, and inventive, in addition to being extremely skilled. Your amps would do just fine on many of his songs, if he was playing them.
Getting back to your situation, it is apparent that you want magic to appear out of the amp when every other case of highly influential players are known for their style and ability to communicate. It ain't going to happen. Get over it or get a modeling amp and some headphones and be done with it.

I have no experience of your playing skill but by reading the long thread it is apparent that you are expecting the amp, some amp, to make up for something lacking, such as "style". You will not find talented, well trained, creative guitarists with something to express, stressing over some amplifier sound, they know where their style comes from and it is not the amp.
If you really want the Brian May sound, you need to go back to school, practice basics hours every day, study music theory, which is easier done with an acoustic guitar. Brian May's amps sound the way they do because HE is PLAYING them. Giving the same amps to a garage band hack will sound just as bad as their current amp. Not one person ever wanted May to sit in on a session with them, because of his amps.

The analogy would be a young painter focusing on brushes as his way to perfection, trying to reproduce the brushes make and model used by a great master.

[loudthud]

Any time you hear a recording of a guitar player or live in a concert, there is someone or something riding the volume control between the guitar amp and what you are hearing. You can't expect an amp to do the same thing in your bedroom. You can't compare what you hear on records in the way of volume between clean and distorted tones and what an amp can do in your bedroom or in a bar. Even at rehearsal, the guys who mix the Front Of House and the Monitors are there so they know every song note for note and what the volume needs to be. Most pro bands would not sound as good without those guys.

[Sea Chief]

Before anything, you need to disabuse yourself of the notion that anything Brian May did was related to equipment. Sure he used a lot of AC30s on stage but his "tone" was not related to why people gravitate towards his playing. He is creative, expressive, smart, and inventive, in addition to being extremely skilled. Your amps would do just fine on many of his songs, if he was playing them.
Getting back to your situation, it is apparent that you want magic to appear out of the amp when every other case of highly influential players are known for their style and ability to communicate. It ain't going to happen. Get over it or get a modeling amp and some headphones and be done with it.

I have no experience of your playing skill but by reading the long thread it is apparent that you are expecting the amp, some amp, to make up for something lacking, such as "style". You will not find talented, well trained, creative guitarists with something to express, stressing over some amplifier sound, they know where their style comes from and it is not the amp.
If you really want the Brian May sound, you need to go back to school, practice basics hours every day, study music theory, which is easier done with an acoustic guitar. Brian May's amps sound the way they do because HE is PLAYING them. Giving the same amps to a garage band hack will sound just as bad as their current amp. Not one person ever wanted May to sit in on a session with them, because of his amps.

The analogy would be a young painter focusing on brushes as his way to perfection, trying to reproduce the brushes make and model used by a great master.

My thread is nothing to do with signature sound. I have re-iterrated this. I have no interest whatsoever in emulating Mr. May, or anyone (Im 34 years past this). My eg of Mr May is used --simply because it is an excellent eg of someone (it could have been anyone even a spotty 12 year old with an ac30 who cant even play I dont care tbh) with a common 20-30w amp using the vol control on GTR at various steps + the amp's natural break-up tone--.

Modelling amp! I have one of the best SS amps made here, a fender 30w tube amp (way to loud & stays resolutely clean), a 5w Champ, a 12w Princeton build dismantled, and a gibson. Modelling amp my ass!

[Sea Chief]

The analogy would be a young painter focusing on brushes as his way to perfection, trying to reproduce the brushes make and model used by a great master.

This post made me mildly annoyed so far off the topic I am on about, and mildly patronising too. I have been happy enough using a SS amp that cost me all of £30 for the last few years with a decent pedal onto the decent enough 'saturation' setting on the amp.. so I am not after any 'perfection'. Far, far from it in fact so long Ive been after a half-decent even useable amp's 'dirty' sound. Its not a great set up at all, but I can get good enough tone it will do me 'ok' for now but its not the amp I would want for ever.

I just want to understand the basics of the volumes, & their interactions. That is all. Once I understand this I can then narrow down (by way of looking at what vol/gain/or MV knobs the amp has for starters) which 10-15w tube amp I would consider on my list to replace my old £30 ss, & which would be by all accounts (esp the possible od/break-up/whatever its called sounds) little more if anything much at all, better than it.

[Sea Chief]

You might want to re-read my last few posts. I made an effort at explaining the differences between the guitar volume, the master volume and an attenuator.

The intention of the master volume is to let you have a good approximation of the cranked sound without blowing your head off. But still be able to blow heads off when you need to, by turning the master volume up full. It makes the amp more versatile.

An attenuator performs a similar function to a master volume, except it goes between the amp and the speaker. The master volume goes inside the amp, between the preamp and the power amp.

Edit: This thread at The Amp Garage might be relevant. The Amp Garage :: View topic - Master Volume in a Fender 5e3 Deluxe??

Thanks for that link Steve- interesting, but by god all this gets even more complicated if another 'VVR' method of volume control is added to the 4 volume types (5 with GTR) Im trying to get my head around. That makes 6!

After reading all your very helpful explanations, replies again I can basically -I think- I read basics are this. Can s'one one please tell me if Im on the right track though?

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1) Input volume (GTR)
2) Gain vol -as if the GTR signal is increaced to "'20'" as it were.
3) Pre amp vol -I think this is overall volume? (ie as would be the single vol on a Champ)
4) Post vol -can also be referred to as MV (?).
5) Attenuator -after but b4 spkr.

A. So 'gain' is overloading the input signal? (and tends to produce the tizzy 'excessive' distortion sounds is it roughly speaking?).
B. Preamp vol turned high gets into what is termed OD -? (and has a better sound, but not the power tube break-up sound though).
C. Post/ MV vol is between the preamp and pwr stages.. so erm.. another exactly similar preamp vol or s'thing, so also OD? (tbh I cant understand the difference between this and Preamp vol).
D. Power amp vol can only be controlled by an attenuator, or simply standing far/ close to the spkr.

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Does this make any sense/ am I on the right track??

Appreciated all the help/ replies chaps- SeaChief.

[Steve Conner]

You listed the different types of volume controls in the same order that they appear in the signal chain, and that is what determines their effect.

The earlier the volume control is in the signal chain, the more it tends to control the amount of distortion, as opposed to the volume.

The later the volume control is in the signal chain, the more it functions like a real volume control, controlling the volume you hear in the room without affecting the amount of distortion.

This distinction can only be seen if some stage of the signal chain is distorting. If the signal is completely clean, nothing is distorting, then all of the volume controls do the same thing.

If most of the distortion comes from one stage in the signal chain, then all volume controls before this stage will function as "amount of distortion" controls and all volume controls after it will function as regular volume controls. You can easily verify this for yourself with a distortion pedal.

The problem you have is that the 5E3 generates much of its distortion in the last two stages of the chain: the PI and power tubes. There is no convenient way of placing a volume control after these.