Difference in construction between a British and American voiced speaker.

[Alan0354]

What is the difference in construction. between a British and an American voiced speaker? I am not asking for trade secret, but just in general in how is the cone, voice coil and location of the voice with respect to the magnetic components different. They sure look the same outside. Any material or articles you can recommend?

[Chuck H]

They're the same When people say "American voiced" they generally mean "old Jensen sound" and when they say "British voiced" they generally mean "old Celestion sound". So these monikers aren't really regional, they're maker specific and the countries of origin are incidental. Jensen stopped making guitar speakers for a long time and only recently started taking advantage of the "classic" market for their brand name. In fact they never DID make guitar speakers. They made "loud speakers" that Fender happened to use in some of their amps. So I guess they never stopped making guitar speakers by virtue of never making them !?! Celestion has many models and generally tries to keep to a signature sound, especially for specific models. Their story is much like Jensen in that they made loud speakers that were used in some guitar amps. I'm not sure when they actually started focusing on guitar amp oriented speaker models.

Basically, to my ears and observations and in my humble opinion, "American" speakers have smooth cones (though not always), no dope (though not always) and most popular models had a voice coil diameter under 1.5". Alnico and ceramic magnets were common on various models with a nod of favoritism toward alnico. "British" speakers are more likely to have ribbed cones (though not always), light dope (though not always) and voice coil diameters greater than 1.5". Ceramic magnets were most common with the most notoriously "British" speaker having an alnico magnet. American speakers are usually bright, but not hashy and have big lows that can actually become boomy or farty if pushed. British speakers are more mid oriented, might have a little hash in the HF and moderate lows that stay tighter when pushed. But this is all just a generalization. Since the terms are highly generalized I think it's alright.

[Alan0354]

Thanks for the reply. I found it opposite in some ways. My two Celestion is boomy and more scooped mid. The American Utah seems to have more mid.

[Chuck H]

That's because the Utah speaker isn't an "American voiced" speaker. Fender aficionados don't generally like them because they don't sound like Jensens Celetion makes many modern or updated models that are intended for rock, and therefor have a bigger bottom end than a typical "British voiced" speaker. It's all very subjective and confusing.

[Alan0354]

That's because the Utah speaker isn't an "American voiced" speaker. Fender aficionados don't generally like them because they don't sound like Jensens Celetion makes many modern or updated models that are intended for rock, and therefor have a bigger bottom end than a typical "British voiced" speaker. It's all very subjective and confusing.

So what is the closest to Utah 12" in my Pro Reverb?

[Chuck H]

The Utah is in it's own class. A lower one. Sorry. I've actually never had an amp with Utah speakers so I can't make a personal report. I just know that they were always considered the "other" speaker that Fender used. They are usually replaced and not much sought after.

[Alan0354]

The Utah is in it's own class. A lower one. Sorry. I've actually never had an amp with Utah speakers so I can't make a personal report. I just know that they were always considered the "other" speaker that Fender used. They are usually replaced and not much sought after.

That's funny.

As I said before, I absolutely do not like Celestion G12T-75 and G12H-100, both have booming bass, a little boxy sounding and a little scooped mid. I want something that is mid heavy.

I guess Eminence legend and Jensen C12N should be close. Do you agree.

Thanks

[soundmasterg]

That's funny.

As I said before, I absolutely do not like Celestion G12T-75 and G12H-100, both have booming bass, a little boxy sounding and a little scooped mid. I want something that is mid heavy.

I guess Eminence legend and Jensen C12N should be close. Do you agree.

Thanks

You've got some of the less desirable Celestions. Something like the the Celestion Gold or the Vintage 30 would be better to try in your Pro Reverb if you are going for a Celestion sound. Both of those are widely used Celestions with the power to handle your Pro Reverb.

For Jensens or clones, Webers are a great choice. The modern Jensens suck...too bright and hard. They sound nothing like vintage ones. Eminence is also a good choice....the Legends are ok, though they use a Kaptan former which allows for more power but doesn't quite sound like the vintage paper ones. I used a couple Weber 12F150's in my brother's '67 Pro Reverb. One is the 12F150, and the other is the 12F150 option with the slightly brighter cone. His amp sounds fantastic now....perfect speaker setup for that amp in my opinion.

Greg

[Dave H]

Thanks for the speaker history lesson Chuck. Where do the Oxfords aka Oxfarts fit in?

[Chuck H]

Thanks for the speaker history lesson Chuck. Where do the Oxfords aka Oxfarts fit in?

Not enough personal experience to say where they fit into my very biased assessment. It's my understanding that they are not very efficient, sound boxy but without much mid character and, though a darker speaker, don't handle bass well. Like I mentioned earlier, Fender people don't even seek them out as OEM for restorations.

Of the Celestions that Alan has I've used one of those models. The g12h-100. I liked it. Not the classic British voice though. Much bigger on the bottom end and less upper mid spice. Definitely more of a scooped sound as he describes. I think Alan might like the Emi Red White and Blues model. It's said to be like the popular EV models but I don't think it is. It's a little boxy and dark but with big lower mids and very efficient and lively for a boxy tone. Buying speakers sight unseen is always risky though so maybe it's irresponsible to actually suggest anything.

The "American" and "British" voiced monikers either don't have any actual meaning OR have different meanings to different people. I want to be clear that any above info that I have given or will give to define the terms is strictly my own perception.

My own take on classic "American voice" speakers would be vintage Jensen p10r, p12r, p12q. I've seen others opine that the "American voice" is EV's or the JBL's on odd occasions too though.

My own opinion on "British voiced" speakers would be from Celestion, vintage or otherwise, G12m, G12h30 (Heritage or "Anniversary" with a nod to the Heritage), of course the Bulldog (vintage) and Blue (modern) alnico models.

I want to mention another speaker here. The Vintage 30 is a bitch to break in, with it's big upper mid KERRAANG! and slightly harsh top end. But if you can live through it the resulting speaker is a good one with some of the better qualities of both American and British voices. It took me about 150 playing hours to break one in to where it settled and stopped changing in a 20W combo. Still working on the pair in my 2X12 cab that doesn't get as much play time, After a few years they've mellowed nicely though I don't know if they're done. This speaker seems to be loved or hated. I think the haters are judging the new, raw tone of the speaker because they sound quite different once broken in.

[Alan0354]

My God, here we are talking all the theory about the amp. But actually the speaker is the biggest variable and most of us ( JMF excepted as I remember he make speakers) has no control on that except try one at a time. To complicate more, you can't return it, it is hard to find one you can test in the store!!!

Sounds like I need to gamble my money on an Eminence Legend either 1218 or 1258. I listen to the video demo of Jensen C12Q, it has good mid I like, but it sure lack the bottom.

[Alan0354]

Not enough personal experience to say where they fit into my very biased assessment. It's my understanding that they are not very efficient, sound boxy but without much mid character and, though a darker speaker, don't handle bass well. Like I mentioned earlier, Fender people don't even seek them out as OEM for restorations.

Of the Celestions that Alan has I've used one of those models. The g12h-100. I liked it. Not the classic British voice though. Much bigger on the bottom end and less upper mid spice. Definitely more of a scooped sound as he describes. I think Alan might like the Emi Red White and Blues model. It's said to be like the popular EV models but I don't think it is. It's a little boxy and dark but with big lower mids and very efficient and lively for a boxy tone. Buying speakers sight unseen is always risky though so maybe it's irresponsible to actually suggest anything.

The "American" and "British" voiced monikers either don't have any actual meaning OR have different meanings to different people. I want to be clear that any above info that I have given or will give to define the terms is strictly my own perception.

My own take on classic "American voice" speakers would be vintage Jensen p10r, p12r, p12q. I've seen others opine that the "American voice" is EV's or the JBL's on odd occasions too though.

My own opinion on "British voiced" speakers would be from Celestion, vintage or otherwise, G12m, G12h30 (Heritage or "Anniversary" with a nod to the Heritage), of course the Bulldog (vintage) and Blue (modern) alnico models.

I want to mention another speaker here. The Vintage 30 is a bitch to break in, with it's big upper mid KERRAANG! and slightly harsh top end. But if you can live through it the resulting speaker is a good one with some of the better qualities of both American and British voices. It took me about 150 playing hours to break one in to where it settled and stopped changing in a 20W combo. Still working on the pair in my 2X12 cab that doesn't get as much play time, After a few years they've mellowed nicely though I don't know if they're done. This speaker seems to be loved or hated. I think the haters are judging the new, raw tone of the speaker because they sound quite different once broken in.

Boxy is exactly how I feel a little about both Celestion!!! I don't like boxy. The two Celestions has a very funny sound I don't even know how to describe on top of boxy, it's is like inside a tube for the lack of better description. The "Cheap" Utah is a lot more open with loose bass.

[Chuck H]

See, now there's where all that subjective terminology gets confusing! I think of "boxy" as sort of flat sounding without much boom on the bottom or pizazz on top. Not dark per se but maybe bland in the average amp. But a boxy (my definition) speaker could be just the thing for an amp like a Silver Twin Reverb or a JCM800 master volume when they seem to have too much at each end of the spectrum.

Earlier you said your Celestions were "boomy" and "scooped". You also added "boxy" but I don't think of boxy as boomy and scooped!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

It might be fun to form a forum committee and lay down a forum dictionary for all the subjective terms we use. The committee would determine the obvious and weed out some snarky issues and the definition choices could be offered up to members for a vote.

The EMI RW&B's are mid heavy. I have a pair that are still in boxes. I like a more spicy speaker for my little amps. I'd offer them for a good price but I'm pretty sure you need 8 ohm units and mine are 16 ohms.

[Alan0354]

that's why it is hard to even talk!!! I guess I want "not my two Celestion"!!!!

[Chuck H]

Funny!

Look into the Eminence Red White and Blues. Seriously. The Celestion Gold alnico might be great, but at US $280 bucks a pop I just couldn't do it.