fender Blues DeLuxe Reissue ate two PT,s fuse not blown and correct value

[Alan0354]

You are right, stay with your single sided pcb.

[jazbo8]

Alan - you gave in too easily But seriously, you just have been working at the cutting edge of hi-tech for too long, unlike us regular folks that still work with old-tech...

[gui_tarzan]

Yep. I learned how to etch PCBs back in the early 1980s and still do my own when needed. I don't use the highly toxic (to people and the environment) ferric solutions today though, I found a much less toxic home brew online using typical swimming pool acid and hydrogen peroxide. According to the site I found it on it is very safe as long as you don't breathe it in or leave it in an open container. I did that once in my garage and all the metal objects around it within a foot or so had a fine haze of rust on them the next day.

I found a seller on evilbay that I was able to get some PCB single-sided for .013/sq in and I don't have to buy large quantities. It's perfect for replacing or creating boards in these amps. It's a little thicker than normal but I don't mind that at all and my table saw cuts it very cleanly. For P2P I just etch the one side and put my eyelets in.

[Alan0354]

Alan - you gave in too easily But seriously, you just have been working at the cutting edge of hi-tech for too long, unlike us regular folks that still work with old-tech...

High tech becomes low tech in this already. The cost of pcb fab is so much cheaper today. I was shocked by the price offered. Assume there is a cost difference between single layer and two layer, it would be very minimal. The info I gave was directly from pcb fab house that they have to etch out the top layer if you insist to do true single layer. Two sided clad is cheap BECAUSE it is the standard building block for multi layer pcb. They order this by large quantity. Thats why the cost is low. If they have to special order a single layer clad, it will be more expensive.

I am not interested in arguing this, to each their own. I can tell you from years of pcb layout, even if you do single layer trace. Using a two sided clad WILL GIVE YOU THE PLATED THROUGH HOLES that will make the board a lot more durable. It still looks like a single layer board, but you can see a pad on the top layer. Big advantage because the plate through holes serves as the anchor onto the pcb and you don't rip out the trace that easily. Also, you can desolder the component from the top as you can heat the pad and melt the solder under.

Check out the price they offer for two layer boards on ebay. You might not want to etch your own anymore. With automation, you can put things so much closer, so much more freedom than etching your own. I will never go with pcb that doesn't have plated through holes because of quality issue.

The real price jump is from 2 layers to multiple layers. For example, if you want a 4 layer board. The process is taking two of the two layer clads and glue them them together with a glue layer called "prepig"( don't know the exact spelling). The price almost double from two layers because not only you need two clads, they have to heat and press the clads together. That is an extra step that the single or two layer board don't need. Same cost calculation applies. 3 layer boards is no cheaper than 4 layers because they have to etch out the forth layer. So the cost of an odd number layer board is calculated using the cost of the next higher even layer board.

[Alan0354]

Yep. I learned how to etch PCBs back in the early 1980s and still do my own when needed. I don't use the highly toxic (to people and the environment) ferric solutions today though, I found a much less toxic home brew online using typical swimming pool acid and hydrogen peroxide. According to the site I found it on it is very safe as long as you don't breathe it in or leave it in an open container. I did that once in my garage and all the metal objects around it within a foot or so had a fine haze of rust on them the next day.

I found a seller on evilbay that I was able to get some PCB single-sided for .013/sq in and I don't have to buy large quantities. It's perfect for replacing or creating boards in these amps. It's a little thicker than normal but I don't mind that at all and my table saw cuts it very cleanly. For P2P I just etch the one side and put my eyelets in.

How do you guys layout the pcb? Do you use CAD software like Eagle, OrCad, PADS etc.? Or you actually still do taping? I never done etching, I don't even know how to take a GERBER file from software into image on a clad board for etching.

Ebay is cheap, I checked around in my area, they did not even come close to the price. I don't know how they can do it. 5 of 2"X1.2" run for $50 as low quantity prototype run, no shipping. You basically can calculate the cost by how the pcb fit onto the clad board that is like about 18"X18". They have different sizes. They have a fixed price for the clad, so it's a game of how many pcb you can fit on one clad and calculate the approx price. So if you want it cheap, work with the FAB house, find out what is their standard clad size, design your pcb so it can fit the max number of boards per clad board. Then you get the best price.

Then the price goes way low when you order larger quantity. It cost money to set up the first run. But when you do large quantity, it's like putting through the copier and crank it out. They can even break it down to setup cost and FAB cost, you only pay one setup cost, then they just do cookie cutting production. Price is going to be a lot lower for production quantity.

[J M Fahey]

How do you guys layout the pcb? Do you use CAD software like Eagle, OrCad, PADS etc.? Or you actually still do taping?

For you to even *mention* taping as a possibility, confirms you have no clue and at best might have brushed shoulders with some PCB designer/maker some 30 years ago.
For your information no taping supplies have been available since the late 80's or early 90's

I never done etching, I don't even know how to take a GERBER file from software into image on a clad board for etching.

Amazing you recognize that

Ebay is cheap, I checked around in my area, they did not even come close to the price. I don't know how they can do it. 5 of 2"X1.2" run for $50, no shipping.

You are absolutely ignoring my post above, with all numbers and prices clearly laid out.
Again: 2*1.2*5=12 sq inches, so cost $50/12=4.2 $/sq in
I showed I can make mine for ten cents a square inch ... which by the way must be *their* cost too ... or less.
So they are charging you .... what? .... a meager 4.2/.1=4200% markup?
Oh, I forgot, "free shipping"

So if you want it cheap, work with the FAB house, find out what is their standard clad size, design your pcb so it can fit the max number of boards per clad board. Then you get the best price.

If I want it cheap I make it myself for about 40 times cheaper than what they charge, how's that?
And FASTER, I have "next day delivery" built-in

But you sound like you are pushing jobs for some PCB factory in China.
Is it owned by a relative or something?

[Alan0354]

For you to even *mention* taping as a possibility, confirms you have no clue and at best might have brushed shoulders with some PCB designer/maker some 30 years ago.
For your information no taping supplies have been available since the late 80's or early 90's

Amazing you recognize that

You are absolutely ignoring my post above, with all numbers and prices clearly laid out.
Again: 2*1.2*5=12 sq inches, so cost $50/12=4.2 $/sq in
I showed I can make mine for ten cents a square inch ... which by the way must be *their* cost too ... or less.
So they are charging you .... what? .... a meager 4.2/.1=4200% markup?
Oh, I forgot, "free shipping"
If I want it cheap I make it myself for about 40 times cheaper than what they charge, how's that?
And FASTER, I have "next day delivery" built-in

But you sound like you are pushing jobs for some PCB factory in China.
Is it owned by a relative or something?

I am talking about low quantity prototype run. Of cause price goes way down when doing large quantity!!!

Yes, I did not even read your post. It's a waste of time to talk anymore. You do your own and I do mine. I am not here to argue, I presented the way how people here do things, doing high quality reliable pcb and done fast. I design and FAB boards for years dealing with FAB companies. I don't know your country. So just leave it at that.

If your board house can do it that cheap, tell them to put on ebay, I bet they can take all the business from China.

[Justin Thomas]

Disclaimer: I've never made a PCB in my life! Though I'm sure I've let more than my share into the environment when I was a kid...

I think the two of you are arguing at cross purposes. Alan, you have the "Middleman." Juan is <THE> man. You are "designing and dealing with FAB companies." Juan <IS> the FAB company. And I'm sure if Juan wanted to sell PCBs on ebay, he's going to charge a markup. I don't know how much, but he ain't selling them at cost. He'll look at what others are selling comparable product at, and compete. And if another company can sell at 4200% markup, Juan will do the same. Alan, I'm not sure where you are, but in real currency values, I bet your ebay supplier's costs aren't a whole lot more than Juan's direct costs. You may not be getting ripped off or scammed compared to what other companies charge for comparable product, but you might look into it.

Alan, I don't know what you do for a day job, but it might be worth looking into how Juan does it! Building & repairing gear is Juan's full-time gig. IF you have the time and space to invest in a real DIY PCB FAB house in the garage, so to speak, it may be worth it to you. If you DON'T have the time and space to put into it, then you are BOTH right for your own individual situations, and you are indeed correct: you don't have much to argue about.

Justin

[Alan0354]

Disclaimer: I've never made a PCB in my life! Though I'm sure I've let more than my share into the environment when I was a kid...

I think the two of you are arguing at cross purposes. Alan, you have the "Middleman." Juan is <THE> man. You are "designing and dealing with FAB companies." Juan <IS> the FAB company. And I'm sure if Juan wanted to sell PCBs on ebay, he's going to charge a markup. I don't know how much, but he ain't selling them at cost. He'll look at what others are selling comparable product at, and compete. And if another company can sell at 4200% markup, Juan will do the same. Alan, I'm not sure where you are, but in real currency values, I bet your ebay supplier's costs aren't a whole lot more than Juan's direct costs. You may not be getting ripped off or scammed compared to what other companies charge for comparable product, but you might look into it.

Alan, I don't know what you do for a day job, but it might be worth looking into how Juan does it! Building & repairing gear is Juan's full-time gig. IF you have the time and space to invest in a real DIY PCB FAB house in the garage, so to speak, it may be worth it to you. If you DON'T have the time and space to put into it, then you are BOTH right for your own individual situations, and you are indeed correct: you don't have much to argue about.

Justin

It is not 4200% more. I was quoting a prototype of 5 pieces run as an example. I assume people that have done pcb know what that means. For production run, it's going to be a whole lot cheaper. It would be crazy to pay $10 a piece of 2"X1.2" for production. The cost is mostly the initial setup charge. If you do a run of 100 boards, it's going to be a whole lot cheaper. 1000 boards, it'll be down to dirt.

The point I made is more to do with the quality and reliability of having a plated through holes. A true single sided pcb has no plated through holes. The components are held onto the pcb by just the glue of the copper trace. You flex the board, desolder the components, you risk ripping the trace off.

Like you said, it's very simple, if he can do it a lot cheaper, he can put an ad on ebay and close all the shops in China in a month. I was a manager of EE in charge of pcb design and I designed pcb myself all these years. I worked with FAB houses, learning their process. So I know what I am talking about. If it is a lot cheaper in Argentina, I hope they will advertize it, then we don't have to buy from Hong Kong and China. But proof is in the pudding. Until I see the real price on ebay, all talk are just that....talk. Price are very very competitive. I constantly pitting one shop to the other to bid. I don't think I am being taken.

[gui_tarzan]

How do you guys layout the pcb? Do you use CAD software like Eagle, OrCad, PADS etc.? Or you actually still do taping? I never done etching, I don't even know how to take a GERBER file from software into image on a clad board for etching.

Don't laugh at me but I use a Sharpie marker just as I did thirty years ago. Keep in mind my boards are very simple and I wouldn't dare try to make a complicated board with a marker. In fact I would likely not even try to make a real complicated board, however I did make a small 4x3 PCB for one of my Sunn amps that was missing one. I printed out a photo that someone took of their board and drew it on my board. The traces aren't close together and it looks like they were very crude back then anyway. It works for me when I need it.

[Alan0354]

Don't laugh at me but I use a Sharpie marker just as I did thirty years ago. Keep in mind my boards are very simple and I wouldn't dare try to make a complicated board with a marker. In fact I would likely not even try to make a real complicated board, however I did make a small 4x3 PCB for one of my Sunn amps that was missing one. I printed out a photo that someone took of their board and drew it on my board. The traces aren't close together and it looks like they were very crude back then anyway. It works for me when I need it.

You use Sharpie marker to mark and dip to etch board? I did not know that!!! I am not laughing, next time if I need a simple one quick, I might do that!!!

Do you mind giving me a short description how to do it?

[gui_tarzan]

Draw the circuit on the board and go over it a couple of times with the marker, then use a roughly 2:1 mix of hydrogen peroxide and muriatic acid in a covered plastic container and keep an eye on it so it doesn't go through the marker but gets the rest of the copper. Don't leave it uncovered for more than a few seconds at a time, you can re-use it over and over.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Stop...ter-etc/#step1

[J M Fahey]

You use Sharpie marker to mark and dip to etch board? I did not know that!!! I am not laughing, next time if I need a simple one quick, I might do that!!!

Do you mind giving me a short description how to do it?

[Alan0354]

Draw the circuit on the board and go over it a couple of times with the marker, then use a roughly 2:1 mix of hydrogen peroxide and muriatic acid in a covered plastic container and keep an eye on it so it doesn't go through the marker but gets the rest of the copper. Don't leave it uncovered for more than a few seconds at a time, you can re-use it over and over.

Stop using Ferric Chloride etchant! (A better etching solution.)

Thanks. How long do you dip the board in? Do you rinse with water later?

[Audiotexan]

I've been interested in the derail this has taken given that when I learned etching 30 years ago, it was the tape method etc. So the whole home-brew etchant is rather enchanting to me from the simple fact that it can be done 1. at home, 2. cost effectively, and 3. without hassle.

I can see Juan's purpose, and I'm also familiar with what Alan was referring to, and have to agree with Justin above, that I think you guys are hitting things from two TOTALLY different standpoints/end goals. So it'd be nice if inflammatory things could be toned down a bit "You have no idea..." etc. I'm not sure if there's past bad blood here or not and frankly I don't want to know, but it kinda reads that way to "the new guy" (me). At any rate...I'm always interested in learning a new/different way of doing things, so in that vein, I'll risk asking...

So instead of being all "put out" with what I assume you're viewing as archaic methodology (lol) could I please talk you into sharing your method Juan?

Earnestly curious, and thanks!
Rob

PS: Just a hobbyist in this area, always interested in learning new methods!