Cost of producing a 20W amp with 6V6.

[Alan0354]

I am doing some rough calculations of manufacturing a 20W 1X12 combo in low volume. Here is my guessing with a production run of 10 and this is cost per amp:

1) Chassis, front plate and cabinet: $250
2) 3 transformers PT, OT and choke: $70
3) Speaker: $50.
4) pots and knobs: $10
5) Tubes: $60
6) Filter caps: $30
7) pcb and other components: $50.

That is $540 just for parts!!!

You still need labor to build, test and shipping. Then you need to have profit. How do you make money? I think my guessing cost is very low for low volume production of 10 to test the market.

Say your target price is $1000. You have to sell it to the music store for no more than say $600. You'll be building the amp for almost nothing!!!! Also, at $1000, you are competing with Fender Super Sonic and Marshall DSL40C which both are mighty amps.

[J M Fahey]

I am doing some rough calculations of manufacturing a 20W 1X12 combo in low volume. Here is my guessing with a production run of 10 and this is cost per amp:

1) Chassis, front plate and cabinet: $250
2) 3 transformers PT, OT and choke: $70
3) Speaker: $50.
4) pots and knobs: $10
5) Tubes: $60
6) Filter caps: $30
7) pcb and other components: $50.

That is $540 just for parts!!!

You still need labor to build, test and shipping. Then you need to have profit. How do you make money? I think my guessing cost is very low for low volume production of 10 to test the market.

Say your target price is $1000. You have to sell it to the music store for no more than say $600. You'll be building the amp for almost nothing!!!! Also, at $1000, you are competing with Fender Super Sonic and Marshall DSL40C which both are mighty amps.

Quite accurate.

You have to add a proper box and packaging + a printed brochure/manual + shipping (or driving to a local shop to deliver and collect) + due taxes + some extras.

No way an unknown can compete that way , specially in price, with established brands.

2 ways to beat that:

1) have the amp fully made in China for an OEM price of, say, $250 tops

2) establish yourself as a Guru , get some Guitar God to use it , specially to record a big hit or it to be very visible in the background when the equivalent du jour "Guitar Player type magazine) interviews such wonder guy.

Then you can charge U$2600 for it.

Surefire to waste time and money:
spend $1200 to $1800 by building the same old tired circuits but with "first class components": expensive caps, MM iron, Bourns $20 pots, hand turned brass knobs, exotic wood cabinets, real crocodile skin Tolexing, etc.

[Enzo]

You are not competing with Marshall and Fender. You are making 10, you are a boutique builder, a cottage industry. You won't sell it to music stores from a catalog, you will sell them individually. If I wanted to sell my amp through a local music store, they are not likely to buy it from me, but they would probably sell it for me on consignment. I don't know what consignments are going for these days, is 15% still reasonable or am I out of touch? But consignment costs the store nothing, they are not buying it, your amp sits there until it sells, then they take their cut and pass the rest to you. Even the big brand names have programs like "floorplanning" where they put the product in your store, and you pay for it when it sells. That prevents the store having to pony up tens of thousands of dollars to have inventory. And that is not so different from selling on consignment, really.

The shipping boxes and three color brochures can wait until you are a successful manufacturer.

You will need to get the amp into the hands of potential buyers. Build some word of mouth buzz. Why does someone want your amp in the first place? Don't tell me, tell them.

[km6xz]

Manufacturing whiz bang hand built amps is something hobby builders dream about but it is just a pipe or bong dream. Manufacturing is hard to do because almost none of the skills needed to do it successfully has anything to do with music or sound. And in the simple dact that any of those skills that might be lacking, even once, can sink the company. I got into manufacturing in 1970 starting with 4 friends, 2 were ee's, another was a marketing guy and 2 were money types but basically all hippies in a big interesting warehouse. We made a line of line amps and eq for broadcast and recording studios. We made everything ourselves even the rack mount chassis pc boards knobs and shipping boxes. they were priced at $250 . We lucky because a distributor liked them and bought 25 and then 50 and got them written up as a review in NAB. Even with that good luck we barely broke even when all the components only cost around $50. We made about 700 total over a couple years and they got great reviews but we needed much bigger volume to make living wages.
I calculated that Behringer had a FOB cost of about $8 invested in boxed and tested 19" compressors that were sold for $125 in the US and a landed final cost of $16 after shipping and duties.. That is why even "American" companies have everything built in China. I had a few thousand wireless audio systems built in China for our tour company of my own design and with shipping non-retail boxing they were $25 each. If I committed to 10,000 the price would have dropped to about $9. We use them on our guided tours plus rent the others put for $3/ Day ship port call but that includes fresh aa cell batteries and disposable earbuds. To build them here it would cost me $85 each using $9/hour labor.
Manufacturing is a lot harder than it looks from the outside and much riskier than sales or services.

[Alan0354]

Thanks guys, I just want to do some calculations. I figure it is bad, I did not realize is that bad!!!! I think I'll just continue to use old amps and gut the inside and put in my design as hobby. At least I can tell my big boss that I might sell amps one day to justify spending money to buy parts!!!

[big_teee]

Take whatever you think it's going to cost, and double it. lol
Not with a mojo ready made cab.
But, you end up with an amp that sounds good that can be easily serviced and repaired.
T

[J M Fahey]

Manufacturing whiz bang hand built amps is something hobby builders dream about but it is just a pipe or bong dream. Manufacturing is hard to do because almost none of the skills needed to do it successfully has anything to do with music or sound.

True.
Personally I have been relatively successful, at least always lived out of this , including keeping Family alive, buying (cash, never on credit) different houses along the way, cars, travelling, etc. and never ever had another job, no matter what.
And yet , what baffles customers when they ask it, I am not an Electronics Engineer but an Industrial Engineer who happens to make an Electronic product, not the same.
And one big difference beteween Industrial Engineers and all others, is that they are the only ones totally commited to make the cheapest product which meets specs, with the least effort possible, as fast as possible.
While all others tend to design the best in their own field and let others worry about cost.

And in the simple fact that any of those skills that might be lacking, even once, can sink the company.

I got into manufacturing in 1970 starting with 4 friends, 2 were ee's, another was a marketing guy and 2 were money types but basically all hippies in a big interesting warehouse. We made a line of line amps and eq for broadcast and recording studios. We made everything ourselves even the rack mount chassis pc boards knobs and shipping boxes. they were priced at $250 . We lucky because a distributor liked them and bought 25 and then 50 and got them written up as a review in NAB. Even with that good luck we barely broke even when all the components only cost around $50. We made about 700 total over a couple years and they got great reviews but we needed much bigger volume to make living wages.

True and let's do some math. (sorry Big Tee but 2X *parts* cost is not enough, there's a Ton of extra fixed and hidden costs which must be paid by the product sales ):
$250-50=$200 gross profit ... if parts and assembly time was the only cost .
What about renting the place, keeping at least a couple staff (supposing the 5 partners actually built them with their own hands) , light/water/etc. plus local Tax, delivering (in which vehicle?) , etc.
*Just* considering above gross profit without all the other ones, it means:
700 units x 200$=140000$
In 24 Months=5833$
Given there's 5 partners and hippies were idealistic friendly guys, it would evenly split into 5 x $1166 checks.

Not much, and that ignoring all other costs I mentioned before.

In practice I doubt any partner got much more than 20/30% of that ... and this is being very optimistic.

Doubt even seasoned Hippies can live on meager $200 to $300 a Month.

Of course, it was probably a side business and they also had some other cash source but on its own .....

I calculated that Behringer had a FOB cost of about $8 invested in boxed and tested 19" compressors that were sold for $125 in the US and a landed final cost of $16 after shipping and duties.. That is why even "American" companies have everything built in China. I had a few thousand wireless audio systems built in China for our tour company of my own design and with shipping non-retail boxing they were $25 each. If I committed to 10,000 the price would have dropped to about $9. We use them on our guided tours plus rent the others put for $3/ Day ship port call but that includes fresh aa cell batteries and disposable earbuds. To build them here it would cost me $85 each using $9/hour labor.
Manufacturing is a lot harder than it looks from the outside and much riskier than sales or services.

Amen Brother.

And for a (chilling) real account on manufacturing problems, by a guy who created KILLER guitar amps, among others the excellent LAB amps, used by Guitar Gods, just read:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attac...ps-history.pdf

Keep some tissue paper close because you'll want to weep.

[Alan0354]

That is so true, Sell amps is about advertizing, meeting with musicians, going to shows, getting endorsements. It is the business end that make or break the business.

I am just doing a simple calculation here and it doesn't even look good. I have not put in any cost of labor, packaging, shipping, returns, production problems. Then comes the fun stuffs.............Rent, utilities, insurance...........AH!!! That's the biggie, you build products with dangerous voltage, people always have a way to sue you. Then Cost of marketing and advertizing. My friend that is getting successful in pickup business has to go to NAMN twice a year, just the booth is over $3000. Then he has to travel all over to meet with musicians to get endorsements. These are all money and more important, time.

That's why I am just playing business!!!! I had my whole career already. I had been a musician for over 10 years and I really not interested in the scene again.

[Alan0354]

Further update on my new build. This is a proving of the design and done with better, cleaner layout.....with the final components. Not only all the difficulties we talked above. I encounter parts problem.

1) The Weber PT I order had wrong turning ratio and the two HV taps ( it's an old style center tap winding like the old Fenders) are not balanced. One has 40V higher than the other. I had to email them and they are sending me a replacement right away.......should be arriving tomorrow.

2) The Form 2C DPDT relay I ordered has error on the data sheet, the pin out are wrong. I had to write to Digikey to find out. Luckily this is still a hand wired chassis, if I were to layout the pcb, that would have been a big issue.

3) The pilot light is intermittent, how can you go wrong with the pilot light?? They have to send another one to me!!!

I am sure you guys experienced these before!!!

That's why, unless miracle happens, I am just playing business and use this as an excuse to my big boss to spend money!!!

[J M Fahey]

Welcome to the Real World

[Alan0354]

Another update

I received the second PT from Weber, this time I was wise, I power the transformer out of the box without putting into the amp. IT MEASURE WRONG AGAIN. I asked them to check before ship. Just wrote another email to them telling them the way I measured so they can comment. The stupid PT is not balanced. with the center tap as reference 0V, the two side of both sets of wires are not the same voltage, off by 44V!!! ie: one Red wire measured 312, the other red wire measure 356.

There you go again. That will be another week delay. My amp sounds really good, the power scaling works beautifully, just need that stupid PT to close it up!!! Can you imagine if I were one of you guys that waiting for this part to ship to customers, I'll be having a heart attack!!!!



The one in the amp measured wrong too, but I am surprised it does not give me any hum even it is not balanced. The problem is instead of getting about 380VDC after rectification, I only got 330VDC under load. The tap is supposed to give 540VAC which when used in center tap, should give me (540V/2) X 1.414=381VDC with no load, say about 360VDC under load. I loss 30VDC and that reduced the power output.

[pdf64]

'I received the second PT from Weber, this time I was wise, I power the transformer out of the box without putting into the amp. IT MEASURE WRONG AGAIN'

Wow, that's deju vu all over again.
I've been through the exact same thing with Weber, got a handful of near useless DR PTs to prove it.
Eventually they got a good batch from their supplier and sorted me out with a good one.
That was in 2005!

Yes, the main hassle with the unbalanced ones was a much higher differential between unloaded / fully loaded VB+.
Pete

[Alan0354]

'I received the second PT from Weber, this time I was wise, I power the transformer out of the box without putting into the amp. IT MEASURE WRONG AGAIN'

Wow, that's deju vu all over again.
I've been through the exact same thing with Weber, got a handful of near useless DR PTs to prove it.
Eventually they got a good batch from their supplier and sorted me out with a good one.
That was in 2005!

Yes, the main hassle with the unbalanced ones was a much higher differential between unloaded / fully loaded VB+.
Pete

Wow, so I am not the first one. I really questioned what I did wrong. I wrote to them in detail what and how I measure and even took pictures. They are not very good!!!! I did ask them to measure before shipping.

[J M Fahey]

Please post which exact model is that transformer.
Thanks.

[Alan0354]

Please post which exact model is that transformer.
Thanks.

WO25130INT

Here is the data sheet: https://taweber.powweb.com/store/025130intsch.jpg

It is a very good transformer....if it works!!! It has 540V CT and 680V CT. Spec for 150mA. You use SS, you can use 6L6 and get something like 30W.

Problem is this is the THIRD holdup. Notice the data sheet shows with vertical chassis mount? IT is NOT. It said in the site that you have to buy the bell housing for that. They did willing to send me for free if I buy something else, which I did. I attach a picture so you can see what I meant, the housing cannot be mount on the chassis as is. The wires are coming out on both sides as shown in the picture, you cannot lay it down without having the wires sticking out on one side.

Then the first PT has wrong voltage, then the second PT still have wrong voltage. 3 Weeks delay.......3Weeks on this stupid PT!!!!