Can you hear the difference?

[Alan0354]

Here is the link from Classic Tone that compare a Marshall type OT from different manufacturers. I saw the different review. BUT I listened the clips over and over. I can tell a slight difference between them, but I can hardly say which one is better. It can well be variation of picking, slight difference of mic position etc.

Paper Vs. Plastic

Is it my ears or others are psychosomatic? Bottom line, I think I can use any one of them.

[Pedro Vecino]

The order in quality in that recording for me is:
Classic tone
Heyboer
Weber
M.Magnetics

But ... is not the best Plexi Marshall texture (amp/guitar/playing/recording).
Preamp tubes sound to me like JJ

[Alan0354]

I must have bad ears. To me the difference is very minor, I can't exactly say which one is better, just slightly different.

Anyway, I just ordered the Classic Tone. It is cheap, sound as good as anyone else.

[Audiotexan]

To me there's a *healthy* difference with these.
It's definitely not just psychosomatic.

Assuming that all settings were in fact identical...

Heyboer gets first place in my book.
Classic Tone second.
Weber third.
Mercury Magnetics dead last for 'mud' factor. It just sounds muffled.

I'm amazed there's as much buzz as there is for MM given this clip.
This might not be there strong point, or an amp that lets it shine, but it's my first 'hearing' one, and I'm not impressed by any stretch of the imagination.

None of them had enough low end for my tastes, but again, assuming the settings were the same, there's enough there to get a really good idea of what *could* be on tap!

The Weber and CT are really close though.

I think this 'shootout' might have been better served by eliminating the human factor, and recording a nice take into Cubase/whatever, then piping it back into the amp 'note for note'. But it's nice that we have what's there to compare!

[Alan0354]

It seems like it's more the matter of taste rather than better or worst.

Yes, it would be a much better comparison if they can record the guitar line and drive through the amp with the exact identical recording. To me, the human picking is the single biggest variable. You just cannot play and pick exactly the same every time. It's not better or worst, it's just different.

To me, the MM clip have a little more "room" echo sound, I just take it as a little difference in the mic position. When you put the mic only 1" from the grill cloth, moving sideway just a fraction of an inch makes a big difference in the sound of the recording. I just feel the difference is all in the playing and the slight difference in the position of the mic.

[Audiotexan]

It seems like it's more the matter of taste rather than better or worst.

That's all I thought this was about. *chuckles*
It's subjective by nature. But taste directly equates to better or worse in this type of comparison. But that's what it's there for. Someone may prefer the more subdued sound of the MM, this comparison just saved them time and money laying out for a Heyboer, then finding it's not to their taste, sending it back, reordering the next...and so forth. If it's not suited for their style/preference, then it's inherently "worse". If it matches their desired tone, then it's "better".

...I just take it as a little difference in the mic position. When you put the mic only 1" from the grill cloth, moving sideway just a fraction of an inch makes a big difference in the sound of the recording. I just feel the difference is all in the playing and the slight difference in the position of the mic.

There's no disputing (or removing at this point) the difference in the playing, but that aside, I assumed the mic would not have been moved, nor the cabinet, nor the guitar cable changed, etc etc...

I'm thinking the only thing that changed in it all was the OT's. That means to me, that the head was lifted off the cabinet, OT changed, then plugged right back into the identical setup (everything left untouched). Leaving only the player and the OT as the variables.

"Curt Granger of Granger Amplification did this independent comparison.."

But they did cover the gist of them in the link you provided.

Amplifier Settings: All straight up the middle (12 O' Clock) with Lar-Mar master dimmed (to be truer to non-master "Plexi" sound).

Recording settings and methods used: The same for each recording

So I don't think that the mic's a factor. But again, to me it's not that serious. It's just a nice way to hear intrinsic differences. YMMV.

[Chuck H]

I liked the Weber best. At least with that amp. I'm actually surprised the differences were so notable. I expected it to be more subtle than it was. I have two amps here that are virtually identical. One has a minor layout difference and uses a Heyboer OT and the other uses an off the shelf Hammond. I actually prefer the Hammond, but they both sound good in different ways. Interestingly it's impossible to get a quantity break on Hammond iron unless you're a dealer. So the Heyboers would have ended up a little over half the cost of the Hammonds per unit. In this venture there was the possibility of moving several hundred units or more, but unless you're specifically selling Hammond transformers there's just no break.

[Alan0354]

They are just so close to me. If I really have to judge, I do like the Classic Tone ever slightly better. Weber seems to be more one dimension for the lack of words. MM is rich, but again, I can hear some "room" echo. That's what I kind of think the mic is in slightly different position.

I have to say my choice are Classic Tone or MM until I checked the price of the MM.........So........I did ordered the Classic Tone.

I think I can live with any one of them. I am more interested in comparing with the Classic Tone Vibrolux OT in my amp. Now I have to think of a way to quick switch the OT back and fore.

[Chuck H]

Well I mentioned layout in my post as if a "minor" difference didn't matter. But I've had other experiences that are contrary. I'm remembering an amp I built about ten years ago where I experimented with the location of the OT. Not a big difference. I just pivoted it 90* on one of the mounting screws. In one position the amp sounded bland and flat. In the other it just came to life with more hair on the OD tone and more of that elusive quality some amps have where they seem to just grab notes and hang onto them for sustain and harmonics. My point is just that when you do your comparison it will only be fair if you have the layout and lead dress stable and the same for both units.

[tedmich]

Well I mentioned layout in my post as if a "minor" difference didn't matter. But I've had other experiences that are contrary. I'm remembering an amp I built about ten years ago where I experimented with the location of the OT. Not a big difference. I just pivoted it 90* on one of the mounting screws. In one position the amp sounded bland and flat. In the other it just came to life with more hair on the OD tone and more of that elusive quality some amps have where they seem to just grab notes and hang onto them for sustain and harmonics. My point is just that when you do your comparison it will only be fair if you have the layout and lead dress stable and the same for both units.

hmm sounds almost like the legends of Dr. Z massaging the lead dress until the amp sounded like a million bucks (or at least a couple k

[Chuck H]

This was just a home project. An amp I was building for a friend. But regarding Dr. Z...

Since there is some known relationship between Dr. Z and TrainWreck that possibility doesn't surprise me. Ken Fischer was reported to "voice" the TW amps in a similar way.

[Alan0354]

Well I mentioned layout in my post as if a "minor" difference didn't matter. But I've had other experiences that are contrary. I'm remembering an amp I built about ten years ago where I experimented with the location of the OT. Not a big difference. I just pivoted it 90* on one of the mounting screws. In one position the amp sounded bland and flat. In the other it just came to life with more hair on the OD tone and more of that elusive quality some amps have where they seem to just grab notes and hang onto them for sustain and harmonics. My point is just that when you do your comparison it will only be fair if you have the layout and lead dress stable and the same for both units.

Turning the OT 90 deg change the magnetic field. I can believe that will make a difference. I assume the OT in the test are all in the same orientation.

There are just too many variables in the amp. I have two amps with exactly the same circuit, one in the Bassman that was built up to the final circuit, circuits were added along the development process that I had to squeeze in or put in a non optimized position. I built the final circuit into the KMD with layout designed optimized for the circuit. The KMD sounds totally different and much better.

This kind of high impedance circuits can be affected greatly by different layouts, unless you have very tight control in the wire placement and all, it can be slightly different. That's the reason I still say all the OT can be used and get good results by minor tweaking.

[Alan0354]

BTW, when you go into the link, notice they have a picture that they bosted about the paper bobbin. The picture shows the primary is wound one layer at a time and cover with paper before winding the second layer and so on. It is very likely that the primary is wound from say left to right smoothly, cover with a layer of paper, then wound from right to left. Then paper, then left to right again, paper, then right to left!!! Meaning, there is no special way, just wounding back and fore with paper in every layer!!!

I opened an OT of an old gramophone before, thats the same type of winding used. There is no scattered winding or any fancy winding. Does "vintage" meaning PRIMITIVE winding?

Please tell me with all the hype and MM being over double the price, they have their secret winding pattern......or just hype!!!??

People said the OT is almost as important as the speaker. From this comparison, it is nothing like the difference in speakers. Different speaker really change the sound of the amp, not the OT. All I can hear is minor difference that I am sure with the knowledge of you guys, can compensate and make every single one works.

[J M Fahey]

BTW, when you go into the link, notice they have a picture that they bosted about the paper bobbin. The picture shows the primary is wound one layer at a time and cover with paper before winding the second layer and so on. It is very likely that the primary is wound from say left to right smoothly, cover with a layer of paper, then wound from right to left. Then paper, then left to right again, paper, then right to left!!! Meaning, there is no special way, just wounding back and fore with paper in every layer!!!

I opened an OT of an old gramophone before, thats the same type of winding used. There is no scattered winding or any fancy winding. Does "vintage" meaning PRIMITIVE winding?

You got it absolutely wrong, can´t believe what you are saying.

Perfectly aligned winding, one layer at a time, insulated layer by layer is the EXPENSIVE SLOW way to do it, today many times abandoned just to churn more wound parts per work shift and earn more $$$$$

Scattered (a.k.a. random or bulk) winding is the hallmark of the cheapest of the cheap crummy transformer, which will also probably have very cheap, poorly cut iron from questionable material

There even exist so called "stick" winders which wind 4 to 12 coils at the same time, on a long sheet of paper, which then is cut to separate them, go figure.
To further lower costs, of course.

Since I know you are a curious guy (the good way), and are worried about Foreign companies taking away American jobs, maybe you´ll find interesting the history of the first Electronics Mexican "maquiladora" (sweatshop producing technical goods) which involves scatterd winders on stick machines:

Cut and paste:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
Angus Cannon Fox

Angus Cannon Fox, Jr. established the first Mexican maquiladora in Tecate, Baja California in the summer of 1964, at the urging of Bruno Pagliai, an Italian-born Mexican industrialist. Fox, then a resident of Sylmar, California, met with Pagliai in Mexico City after reading an article about him titled "Modern Medici" in the May 10, 1963 issue of Time Magazine. Fox investigated Tijuana and Ensenada as possible locations for his business venture, but settled on Tecate because of its immediate proximity to the U.S. border, its low volume of commercial traffic at the border crossing, and because it was largely free of the carnival-like tourist atmosphere and generally unsavory reputation that characterized Tijuana. The manufacturing business established by Fox, which was named Electrónica del Noroeste S.A., was housed in a large brick building that had earlier been a capacitor plant. Located several blocks to the west of the town's beer factory on the same street. The building was leveled in the mid-nineties. While operating, the factory was equipped with Leesona 107 and 108 stick coil winders, George Stevens bobbin winders, band saws for singulating stick-wound coils, coalescing equipment for compressing the ends of singulated coils, vacuum equipment for impregnating singulated coils with varnish, and industrial ovens for baking the varnish-impregnated coils. Electrónica del Noroeste S.A. produced primarily transformers and solenoids for the U.S. market, and its customers included McCann's Engineering and Manufacturing Company (a Los Angeles manufacturer of soft drink dispensing machines), Friden Corporation (a San Leandro-based manufacturer of electromechanical calculators and other automated office equipment), and Hewlett-Packard Corporation. After Electrónica del Noroeste was sold to Genisco Technology, Inc. in 1968, Fox established another maquiladora in Tecate named, simply, Maquiladora Tecate. Located on the outskirts of town on the Ensenada highway in a brick building, landscaped with two palm trees, that had been a night club, Maquiladora Tecate manufactured similar products, as well as trigger coils for Honeywell photo strobe flashes and core memory used in early generations of mainframe computers. In early 1971, Fox was hired by his cousins, Joseph and Richard Ensign, to solve management and technical problems at Agua Prieta Electrónica, a maquiladora located in Agua Prieta, Sonora, Mexico that was a subsidiary of Chicago-based Ensign Coil Company. Agua Prieta Electrónica produced transformer windings using two highly-automated Bachi/Leesona carousel bobbin coil winders. During a weekly commute between El Cajon, CA and Douglas, AZ, Fox was killed on the evening of May 15, 1971 when his Cessna 172E (N5678T) crashed and burned following engine failure while on final approach to Gillespie Field over mountains to the east. Maquiladora Tecate was closed within weeks of his death. Fox’s daughter, Claudia, is married to U.S. Congressman Chris Cannon, an outspoken proponent of the North American Free Trade Agreement.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

So now you know that :
1) the loss of American jobs is not new but started in the sixties !!!
And its corollary: a lot of "old school US quality" product was not *that* American ... even 40 years ago
2) important US politicians are involved in and profiting from it.
And have been doing it for ages.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <

Yes, I know these last lines belong in the Lounge area, but they are so related to what we are talking about that I put them at the end of this thread for consistency.

[Alan0354]

I thought people have secret formula of scattered winding of OT like in pickups!!! So you mean all the good OT are wound layer after layer like the picture? then what is the fuzz about different brands.....particularly MM that cost two to three times more?

BTW, what do the hifi OT that are different from OT of guitar amp. I know they have the screen grid tap, but is there any secret in the winding pattern? I don't know anything about audio OT.

The only transformer I helped to design was a transformer for a 6KV 100W SMPS of . The secondary is a center taped. We actually had to wind the two half as a pair in order to keep the symmetry of the output wave of the two half to reduce RFI and increase efficiency. Of cause, ours is simpler than the audio OT, all we need was to pass the CE and minimal heat. But to my surprise the winding pattern did matter.

Because we wind it as a pair, that's the worst case for voltage standoff. The end of the winding of the two halves can see the max possible voltage between the two wires. We actually used real high voltage cable to wind the secondary. We had to jack up the frequency to get the efficiency up to get about 5 to 10V per turn to keep the number of turns down. My engineer was the one that did the detail design, I just help solving the asymmetry waveform by winding the two secondary side by side.


As for outsourcing. I am more worry about transferring of the state of the art high tech knowledge to China and Russia. They have plenty of highly educated people, all they need is real life experience. Now we (US) handed over on a silver platter!!! We even send expert to train them. All the military, missile guidance system are just everyday computers. There is no secret processors or anything. I was part of the design team of the Land Warrior solder system that has helmet cam connect to weapon to shoot behind walls. GPS and all sort of goodies. The heart of the system was the Intel 386!!!!( that was 13 years ago). So you teach them all the knowledge of the wireless, computers etc., you might as well teach them our weapon system.

I was involved in fixing the image noise problem of the weapon sight camera, the main control inside was a Xylinx FPGA!!! then using a bunch of Linear Technology SMPS circuit and a primitive CCD sensor.....all can be found in common commercial products. So if you learn how to design commercial products, it is easy transition to military application.

Also, all system run by software, When we outsource programming to China, they learn and they gain experience in designing software of weapons, missiles and all the military weapons.