Anyone use SHUGUANG tubes?

[gui_tarzan]

This looks like a good deal too but I have zero experience with their output tubes.

Link

[Alan0354]

Update:

I had my Bassman build up, I used 3 more of the Shuguang 12AX7. The first preamp tube made some chattering sound when I tap it with high gain setting. But it seems to disappeared. The amp is working fine( electrical wise, still have some ways to go on the sound). It does not make chattering noise in lower gain setting. Seems like the 3 are working fine too.

[Alan0354]

This looks like a good deal too but I have zero experience with their output tubes.

Link

I have two in my Pro Reverb, so far so good. I would not think twice to buy it again if I need more.

[Chuck H]

The ones who claim tonal characteristics of brands are either intentionally deceiving the reader for fun or profit or are just repeating internet rumors to hide that they are clueless.

Well... Yes and no. You sell tubes and I don't (so I don't need to tell you this), but...

It's actually rare that a modern tube conforms to any known or time honored "standard" There are certainly tubes that sport notably different capacitance specs from others (even if it's not published). Many tubes are notably different from any previous known standard and yet the data sheets are just revamped regurgitations of some vintage data sheet. You've observed this for yourself and posted as such. You even suggested that actually analyzing different tubes (of the same moniker) to identify noteworthy differences would be a good practice (and perhaps a business model). Certainly different tubes sound different. They're different tubes. Even with operating parameters allocated for there is still a great likelihood of notable HF (and less so LF) performance. I understand that if you cater to a tubes requirements as an amplifier in an electronic circuit it will (should) perform beyond the necessity of review. That would be a perfect world. That would mean tubes were still made with specific specs and tolerances as considerations. I know because of your associations you must know better than to subscribe to any belief in that.

[Alan0354]

I don't know about the physical part of the tube, so I am not saying anything about brands or anything.

I just rebuild my Bassman with almost exactly the same circuit as my First build into the KMD combo a month ago. I intentionally build the almost identical front end as the starting point, both uses the Classic Tone Vibrolux OT. The KMD is using all new JJ 12AX7 and my Bassman now is using the Shunguang 12AX7. I compare with the same speaker in the same cabinet. They do sound a little different, but all in all, it's the sound of my amp. I would say the difference is like one has a little more bite( treble). But it's close enough. Given the power amp is ever slightly different, voltage is slightly different, I would say the tubes are not making much of a difference.

I am going to start modifying the Bassman from now on starting by swapping to the Classic Tone Marshall 50W OT, then start working on the preamp again. I just want to have the identical start where the KMD left off and take it from there.

Not to change the subject, After I tinker with all the speaker I have, still, the one I like the most by a big margin is the WGS G12C/S. That is really one hell of a speaker. I just need a Marshall speaker this time.

[Audiotexan]

Juan has described it well, you hear a difference because of the complex interaction between a particular amp, in its current state of set up but the difference can't really be isolated to the tube.

I respect both your and Juan's input as you both have a great deal more experience/education than I. But I honestly hear differences by changing a single tube, in the same amp, using the same location. EG: V1

When someone says one brand of tubes are brighter or have more pleasing distortion they are really doing a disservice to their audiences who assume the writer really hears a difference in tubes that will translate generally to other amps and other versions labeled the same from that rebrander.

On this, I wholly agree with you. The same tube will not necessarily sound the same in a different amp. While I concur that the majority of that influence is due to circuit topology. I'm more focused on the secondary (in relation to topology: "minor") aspect of the tube. As I also believe (so far anyways) that it's due to the way the given tube is manufactured, and how it handles the signal as a result of those differences.

There's only a select/scant few sellers thus far that actually take the time to (and here's another key of importance IMO) list the type of amps/model of amp that a given tube might be well suited to. I think that's a step in the right direction. Now the accuracy of their opinion, and musical tastes will of course factor into that, as what they expect that amp to sound like might be different than someone else's expectations, so again, the only one who can actually decide suitability would be the buyer.

However, and I'm quite possibly wrong in making this assumption here, I'd expect that the sellers with enough 'gumption' to list specific brands/models of amps that a given tube would be suited for, are drawing on their knowledge/experience of the difference types of circuits that are used in the those amps, and they're expecting that they should complement the manufacturing characteristics of a given tube. But again, that's probably giving them too much credit on my part. Hence, why I do it myself and form my own opinions.

The ones who claim tonal characteristics of brands are either intentionally deceiving the reader for fun or profit or are just repeating internet rumors to hide that they are clueless.

If you're referring to the same tube, and just having been rebranded, then yes. Completely agreed. I expect (and hear) zero difference sound-wise from a Shuguang in the same amp, whether it's been labelled Ruby, Peavey, Marshall, or whatever. It's the SAME TUBE. Why would it sound different??? And if there ARE those out there saying such, then they're completely F.o.S. But I'll chalk that up to marketing in action. (Which by default, in my book is: expect layers of BS.) lol

However, if you're talking brands as in vintage, or even comparing vintage vs modern, I respectfully disagree. I think that the majority of newer brands are using the same or very similar materials/processes, and that's why there's not much difference to be heard typically among current mass production variants. A lot of the processes and tech were lost in the 'downtime' before being resurrected in China and Russia so, I believe that accounts for a majority of differences in modern vs vintage. There's also the aspect of raw materials (and qualities/variances therein) having changed in the same time period.

Primarily, when I talk about using "different brands" I'm talking about different tubes with obviously different construction methods/materials/processes used which should (and IMO do) have a quantifiable (even if by some person's outlook, what they deem subtle) effect on the "electrical transfer properties" or the way those electrons carry signals through the process...much the same as using a polyprop vs mica capacitor makes a difference in sound. Yes they are subtle in the overall outlook, but they are there, but at the level of 'dissection' that we're looking at, is where the relevance is IMO. Some folks don't appreciate or want to look to that level of detail, and that's fine. Others relish it. (Obviously I'm in the latter camp here) Yes it's 'minor' tweaking in the grand scheme, but to me, that's what tone is.

With that said, I'm not one who buys into all the 'mojo' crap about having to use CC resistors, etc. But when I change a single tube with the same mu/tube tested rating on the same tester, and only in the v1 slot, and get a (noticeably) different sound, what else do I attribute that to if not construction techniques/materials/process?

Respectfully,
AT

[Audiotexan]

Update:

I had my Bassman build up, I used 3 more of the Shuguang 12AX7. The first preamp tube made some chattering sound when I tap it with high gain setting. But it seems to disappeared. The amp is working fine( electrical wise, still have some ways to go on the sound). It does not make chattering noise in lower gain setting. Seems like the 3 are working fine too.

Sounds like you're having generally good luck with your purchase so far!! Congrats!

[Enzo]

One part of double blind amplifier/speaker/whatever tests the hifi nuts hate, and important part of that is matching the levels of the amps to less than a decibel difference, THEN listen for qualitative differences.

It is one thing to say a JJ OUGHT to sound like a SOvtek, but you plug the two in alternately and they sound different. But how about the other half of the test? Plug in 10 different JJs of the same model, then try 10 different Sovteks of the same model. Now how much difference do you hear JJ to JJ, or Sovtek to Sovtek? it is entirely possible if not likely that there can be greater differences between JJs than between a particular JJ and a particular Sovtek. Most tube sellers these days offer selected tubes. Selected for higher gain is one criterion.

We all know tube testers are for detecting bad tubes, not promising good ones.

[Alex R]

Some people just like labels I guess, that's in the nature of the modern retail market in which actual specifications are hard to come by, where consumers are forced into relying on the label to try to judge the quality of the goods. It's an aspect of modern capitalism that has grown to baroque proportions in people's minds over the last maybe 50 years, so that now the label is often the most important thing about the goods, printed hugely on the front of tee shirts etc. This wildly irrational product of brand management manipulation in a highly competitive market can't be an objective way to judge the quality of an item.

Whilst the brand junkies this system produces exist, there will always be a branding industry sticking the labels on to please them. But electronic components are not aimed at the retail market, and there lies the problem, as vacuum tubes have moved from the electronic wholesale to the retail market, so that inappropriate expectations created by branding are now applied to goods that weren't manufactured with the retail market in mind, but for a much more demanding industrial market, that laid down required specs and maybe put you out of business if you didn't meet them. Electronic engineers and designers specified objective measures not labels. Brands are far less important in that world.

Country of production is also a measure of quality for some

[km6xz]

Shuguang is a large manufacturer of high vacuum products for industry and research, HV insulators, tubes for industry and much bigger company than all the hi-fi and guitar amp tube market combined so if anyone is having tubes made, they are probably getting them done by Shuguang.
Same with Svetlana which has 17 divisions, in medical diagnostic equipment, lasers, semiconductor, instruments etc and used to be the largest light bulb and vacuum tube factory in the world in that one plant. It is a very entrenched soviet style business model and could not cope with the demands of retail sales or reps so pulled out of the dwindling receiving tube production. If their glass tube business could have been acquired and run in a western consumer model they would being doing well since they had the tooling and expertise to blow any of the others out of the water. But moving the factory would not have been easy, the whole factory was built around it and since it was doing a lot of military work, an outside company could not just lease the space it occupies. All of it is still in place, some of the same staff is there. They just do not produce and tubes. Several of the "names" have approached them and were rebuffed and they would never sell to MM due to how they think he cheated them out of their trademark and name that went back to the 1800s.
Why they are keeping everything intact might be because they would have to spend more money to rip it all out than the space it worth to them since they have several city blocks under roof already.

[km6xz]

Measure the basic parameters, such as interelectrode capacitance and there will be variation, a lot from tube to tube off the same production line but even a 50% difference, 5KHZ is still dwarfing the differences in wiring placement or wiring style around the tube. Testing at 10Mhz or 50 and that surely can be seen in performance. The biggest differences are in gain but doing a spectrum analysis of various tubes, which I am sure you have done, at when operated within their normal range, out of saturation and cut off, there is very little difference in harmonic content, lower than say, changing a coupling cap value or not paying attention to biasing. What is seen from testing wide ranges of new tubes is variations that would suggest quality control and probably durability differences. The shape of the curves are very similar, but the placement of the lines for any given tracer anode sweep and grid step. But the differences are as great between two random tubes from the same brand as between brands so the claims here on these forums about how one brand is bright and airy and another is thick and fluid sounding is pure hogwash.

I do not sell tubes any more, I had two girls doing the testing and sales and I turned it over to them over a year ago. They get technical advice and I get tubes but otherwise it is now theirs. I did not have time to handle that and other other projects( the federal registration of a new tour company has just been completed so I am working on that actively plus doing more repairs then before, where I have one girl as a trainee, a EE who really wanted to learn audio. Besides she is a babe so she gets lots of attention;>) )

[bsco]

I have got to say...I find this forum fantastic...the wealth of knowledge presented here in this and other threads is beyond description...the differences of opinion and the depth of the comments are outstanding...and it is done in a very civilized manner.......with nobody insulting anyone's comments or opinions...I salute all of you....keep up the good work.....it is very much needed by people like me....
Cheers

[Chuck H]

Besides she is a babe so she gets lots of attention;>) )

The man knows marketing

I agree that the differences in tubes are small. They become more significant in the early stages of high gain amps (like guitar amps). I'll let the tubes speak for themselves...

For the first gain stage of any guitar amp (that uses a 12ax7), plug in a Sovtek 12ax7WA. Measure and adjust any operating parameter you deem significant. Now turn the amp up until it's just starting to clip. Play and listen.

Now, with the same amp and using the same settings, replace the Sovtek 12ax7WA with any Shuguang 12ax7 and readjust operating parameters as you deem significant (plate resistance, bias, etc.) I promise you will hear a difference.

This is an extreme case to be sure, but it illustrates the point. I understand that in MOST cases the same operating conditions applied to different tubes isn't going to sound the same. I'm just saying that in this particular circumstance (high gain, early stages) there is an audible difference between tubes even with all things considered. It's fair to say that it's unfair to judge a tube as it sounds when arbitrarily plugged in, but it's also unfair to poo poo players that hear differences based on that caveat alone.

[pdf64]

'The biggest differences are in gain but doing a spectrum analysis of various tubes, which I am sure you have done, at when operated within their normal range, out of saturation and cut off, there is very little difference in harmonic content'

Undertaking a spectrum analysis may be beyond the resource, capabilities and competence of many interested parties, myself included; so thanks for keeping that highlighted.
The thing with guitar amps that I've noticed, especially non-master volume types, is that in use they get pushed into overdrive; even with what may be considered 'clean' settings, a scope across the speaker output can be reveal that the jangle and chime of a clean tube amp in its sweet spot goes hand in hand with the signal peaks being rounded off.
So it may be that the useful / desirable 'normal' range of our application may benefit from being widened to include some parts of non-linear range.
But how to do that in a useful, standardised / repeatable way may be a big job!

'Now, with the same amp and using the same settings, replace the Sovtek 12ax7WA with any Shuguang 12ax7 and readjust operating parameters as you deem significant (plate resistance, bias, etc.) I promise you will hear a difference.'

Might that difference be due to inherently differing gm, plate resistance etc of the differing tubes, and how that interacts with the surrounding circuitry, even when set up such that one static parameter remains the same?
Pete

[Leo_Gnardo]

how about the other half of the test? Plug in 10 different JJs of the same model, then try 10 different Sovteks of the same model. Now how much difference do you hear JJ to JJ, or Sovtek to Sovtek? it is entirely possible if not likely that there can be greater differences between JJs than between a particular JJ and a particular Sovtek. Most tube sellers these days offer selected tubes. Selected for higher gain is one criterion.

Good point Enzo. On occasion I do hear differences within brands, and have to rattle thru my collection to find a tube that will suit an application. Most often the first stage of a hi gain amp, since every noise and defect will be further amplified by subsequent stages.

"Selected" could mean anything. With some outfits, it seems to mean "looks like a vacuum tube, hasn't turned white inside." The HG+ rated preamp tubes I buy from Magic seem to have been selected for not being excessively microphonic, or making noises on their own for instance the JJ "geiger counter" tick in 12AX7s. Practical considerations for use in guitar amps.

Funny thing, one of the very best ever 12AX7/ECC83 I ever ran across was - =C= the real Svetlana. ALSO some of the worst. The good ones, awesome. The bad ones, dreck. Their 6L6's, attractively warm and wooly in the low end, seem to have a bump from @ 100-200 Hz, but I attribute that to loose internal parts which get looser with use, and eventually they become microphonic, making low moaning noises all by themselves.

BUT I may be intentionally misleading the reader just for fun, and/or repeating claptrap I read on websites. OR having a major persistent hallucination. So don't anybody pay attention. Pass the thorazine, please.

It's a damn shame all that Svetlana gear is sitting there collecting dust. Would that it was revived and even improved as another source of quality vacuum tubes.

We all know tube testers are for detecting bad tubes, not promising good ones.

Gets a big +1 from me. I have some customers who have boxes & barrels full of used/reject tubes, and want me to run 'em thru my crappy little Knight/HIckock - at no cost to them of course - so they can flog their "treasures" on ebay with the assurance they've been thoroughly tested and approved by an "expert." Of course I always turn down these requests much to their chagrin.