tube amp line in recording. Decent sound?

[johnatanasoff]

Hi guys,


I don't have much experience with recording in general and never owned a tube guitar amp...

I'm undecided between fractal axe fx ii or a tube guitar amp. I prefer simplicity and prioritize a tube amp all the way!

Buying a tube amp I want to record line in when i can't use a mic because of being loud but still retain a decent professional sound. Is it possible with line in?


Just want to hear your personal experience.



Thank you!

[Leo_Gnardo]

Hi guys,


I don't have much experience with recording in general and never owned a tube guitar amp...

I'm undecided between fractal axe fx ii or a tube guitar amp. I prefer simplicity and prioritize a tube amp all the way!

Buying a tube amp I want to record line in when i can't use a mic because of being loud but still retain a decent professional sound. Is it possible with line in?


Just want to hear your personal experience.



Thank you!

I think you mean recording direct from the amp, no speaker involved? Here's some I've used, with acceptable results. Some folks have gotten happy with HK's "Red Box" a DI that "shapes" the output to resemble what you get with a mic'd speaker. They're around, and reasonably cheap. You need to provide your own resistor load box with the HK Red Box.

Beyond that, there's all sorts of gadgets that try to fill the bill. Rocktron had a unit they called what, a "Juice Extractor", Groove Tube had another similar item. Each one took up a single rack space, and I think there was about 100W worth of speaker-output absorbing resistors in each, plus a circuit board that did some EQ'ing and compressing besides. Neither company wanted to talk about what did what on the circuit board - worried about me copying them I s'pose. "Just plug it in and use it, if it's broke send it back & we'll fix it like new."

Something along those lines would let you record electric guitar at any hour without disturbing your neighbors.

There's more, but I haven't gotten my hands on 'em. And a plain DI box sounds just horrible, squeaky bright & not anywhere near a useful tone. Unless you ARE trying to disturb the neighbors or peel paint.

[johnatanasoff]

Hi Leo,

I'l go for whatever sounds best at whatever price (will try to find it 2nd hand). Until i have a sound proof room in a house (which i don't foresee happening anytime soon in the future), i need a solution. Axe fx ii is great for home recording but just too many options that i don't need plus i still think a tube amp is a better live scenario.

From the options you listed or not; and not thinking about money what do you reckon will give me the most close to a mic'ed sound?

The thing is, i can mic the speaker but the amp sounds really good when its really loud which is not an option at all


Thank you for your knowledge share so far!

[eschertron]

Keep in mind that you cannot simply unplug the speaker on a tube amp. Voltages will go crazy and things start to smell funny, leading to damage. Some of Leo's options above include the power-absorbing loads that take the place of the speaker, other options require that you provide the equivalent load. Note that in either case, the load must be present.

[johnatanasoff]

Eschertron, thank you for warning me on that. Definitely something to keep in mind!

I will go to some music shop and ask them what is the best stuff i can get for my purpose.

[The Dude]

My $.02,

If you are going to also use an amp for gigging, a "real" amp is a good choice. If not, there are a host of modeling devices and/or software to get a great recorded sound. Actually, since many of the modeling options have cabinet simulators built in, probably a better choice IMO. There's nothing better than a mic'd tube amp, but if you can't mic it and are going to DI it anyway, your missing the "magic". The Fractal stuff is fantastic for recording, if you have the budget, and extremely versatile. I think it will sound better than most any DI'd amp.

There's a guy named Ketil Strand over on YouTube. Here's a link to one of his videos.

He has several videos demonstrating the Fractal products. Check out his upload page here for more.
https://www.youtube.com/user/rednebb/videos

An excellent player and some great tones.

[J M Fahey]

I will go to some music shop and ask them what is the best stuff i can get for my purpose.

[shudder]
You mean they'll suggest whatever they get most commission from and/or slow selling stuff they want to move.
That, if they even know what you're talking about.

Better let's look again at your problem:

1) you want to record killer guitar sound. <Check

Until i have a sound proof room in a house (which i don't foresee happening anytime soon in the future), i need a solution. Axe fx ii is great for home recording but just too many options that i don't need plus i still think a tube amp is a better live scenario.


The thing is, i can mic the speaker but the amp sounds really good when its really loud which is not an option at all

2) agree, that killer guitar sound we all crave, comes from a:
a) tube amp <check
b) played LOUD <oops!
c) through a killer speaker to get the *acoustic* sound <oops!
d) with a good micriphone , think an SM57 <check
e) which can be placed before the speaker, at different distances from the cone, different distances from the center, different angles, until it captures the "magic" sound which exists "in the air" within a meter around and up to 3 or 4 meters in front of the speaker <oops!

No line out can give that sound, at least until it's as processed as the digital option.

So in the situation you are now, the best is to stick to some digital solution, be it hardware or software, and learn to use it .

Pssstttt !!!! , don't tell anybody, but even many Pro recordings are using just some digital solution.

Even ... live !!!!

[johnatanasoff]

Hi Dude and JMF!

Yeah even Metallica are using fractal live i heard . To be honest the fractal is mind blowing. What really puts me off is the many option. I am very selective and i want to make sure i get the best sound and i will go nuts with so many possibilities. I know myself!



The tube amp would not be used for gigging at least for the foresseable future. I want to make a band but don't know when...


The thing is that i love playing and i want a great sound when i play. And i thought; well if i buy an amp i shall buy one for every situation, hence the head idea.

Also want to start producing my single to then make an album. It's for my self; to feel fulfilled and share it with friends And then don't know about the future.


For Software there's AmpliTube, but it doesn't sound good and to get a near 0 latency will need a built in sound card or Axe fx ii which is very expensive but the best solution!


I would use the Axe fx ii with monitors for everything at home!


If you were able to get a great sound from some software let me know which? Thing is when you spend so many hours producing your stuff you better have the best sound not to re-due everything again with better gear in the future. If i buy the Axe FX ii i will be broke for a long time!

[The Dude]

Another option would be the host of Line 6 products. I'm not a fan of them live, but I've recorded lots of stuff in the studio with great success. For my ears, the old POD Pro or the original "bean" POD's sound better than the current "High Definition" stuff. I'm not sure why, but the newer stuff sounds "fizzy" to me. The high end character of those is just annoying and difficult to dial out. The older stuff and can probably be had at a good price used.

Another option might be to buy or build an iso box to go with a tube amp like this Demeter.


I have no personal experience with any modeling software, so I'll leave that to others.

[eschertron]

I'm agreeing with The Dude. If you don't know *which* tube amp to buy, get a line 6 product that will allow you to play with different amp types, and help you get an idea of what amps will fill your need. And in a pinch, the line 6 can be used as a stompbox in front of just about anything when you do start playing live.

I hear what you're saying about being hypercritical regarding sonic choices, and I've fallen down the rabbit hole with some music hardware myself The dark side of choosing an amp to limit your experimentation is that you may not have what you want available to you at all with any particular amp

[johnatanasoff]

Honestly if i can greatly decrease the volume with an iso box. I'm up for this option!

[johnatanasoff]

Oh about tube amps i know exactly what i want. I know someone who can build me a replica of the Friedman Brow eye or Cameron Atomica! That's my sound. A line 6 product can come after; as an inexpensive recording utility offering more range of sound; or just some effects unit in front of the amp. The sound will still be tube while colored by digital effects. Sometimes we get killer tones out of it.


I have played tube amps occasionally here and there and i know what my hear likes. With the options above i will be satisfied with a tube amp and when i have more money i can buy the fractal fx

[eschertron]

Honestly if i can greatly decrease the volume with an iso box. I'm up for this option!

The iso box won't be 'baby sleeping in the next room' quiet, and it also won't sound like an amp miked up in any kind of live room. It's simply not 100% to one extreme nor 100% to the other. May be a happy medium, maybe not. Do your research and be aware of the trade-offs. Good luck!

[Malcolm Irving]

... Thing is when you spend so many hours producing your stuff you better have the best sound not to re-due everything again with better gear in the future. ...

Something that professional recording engineers sometimes do is to also keep one track of the direct sound from the guitar (no effects, no amp, no reverb, ...). This is for 'future insurance'. If you become dissatisfied with the 'finished' guitar track, you can send the 'direct' track back out again using a special 're-amping' box. This sets the voltage level and source impedance of the playback output to suite a guitar signal chain (effects, amp, speakers, etc.). You keep the original guitar performance but can change your mind about the sound processing, or when better gear becomes available, etc.

It's not a perfect solution, because the way you play the guitar does depend a lot on the effects that you are using, but I thought I would mention it in case you had not come across the idea.

[johnatanasoff]

Hey Malcom, as you've said if i have to play direct without any effects it's not the same at all! Not the route i'm taking.

I rather wait and get a Friedman brown eye clone and therefore not compromising on professional guitar sound. Will use an iso box!
All other arrangements except (bass which will be real); will be made on a full size midi keyboard.

Will get a good sound card with enough inputs and i'm ready to go!