Replacement speaker question

[prefix71]

Good day all,
New here.
I have a Vox AC4TVH head with a V112TV cabinet and I want to change out the speaker of course. The VOX Showroom - Vox AC4TVH and V112TV Amplifier

Here is my main question...
-I would like a speaker that doesn't break up as quickly, what is the main rule of thumb for this train of thought?
Do I get a higher rated (wattage) speaker? Does that alone provide the headroom needed to stay cleaner at higher volumes???
Tubes?? How much of a difference do they really make?


I appreciate all who look and reply!

Cheers,

[Malcolm Irving]

To be honest, I don't think 4 watts would be enough to cause break up in any Celestion 12" speaker.
The 'crunch' you are hearing will be from the amp IMHO.

[prefix71]

To be honest, I don't think 4 watts would be enough to cause break up in any Celestion 12" speaker.
The 'crunch' you are hearing will be from the amp IMHO.

So would looking at different tubes be a more logical place to start ?

[DRH1958]

Try a combination of lowering the amp's volume and also your guitar's volume. Play around with that first. Have the amp's power on the full 4 watts. If you can't get what you are after with that, you could sub in a 12AY7 for the 12AX7 that's in the amp. It has lower gain than a 12AX7.

I agree with Malcolm, very small chance the amp has enough power to break up the speaker unless they designed a very low power speaker just for this amp but I doubt it. It will be pretty hard to get any serious clean volume with just a 4 watt amp.

[Chuck H]

I'm sort of an a$$h0!e by nature, so this may come across like I'm doing something intentional. I'm not though. This is just my limited observation on the matter...

I'll assume you tried the amp before buying it. I would think that you knew how the amp sounded and performed then. Even so, this is becoming a common problem. A lot of players want these little amps to perform like they have more watts. Nothing personal, but it really does come down to a lack of understanding the tools. Guitars and amps and how they work. A lack of experience may be the issue. Most guys become very offended by that inference because they've "been playing for (ten. twenty, thirty, whatever) years". But that doesn't mean someone has finite experience with amps at different volumes, stage situations, how a guitar/amp behave loud vs. quiet, etc. Most players are actually somewhat pigeon holed in these matters. Then when the nice amp they paid good money for doesn't do everything any amp can do they become despondent. I'm sure all of this doesn't apply to you and your situation, but perhaps some of it does. So...

My first suggestion would be to get a bigger amp. That would be the most satisfying solution. Short of that there are still two things that could help.

Get a more efficient speaker. Whatever size speaker you have, there is likely a high end guitar speaker you can replace it with. Of course you should listen before you buy, but that isn't always possible with speakers. So you may be in for a long internet speaker search frenzy that everyone here is overly familiar with. One thing you definitely need as a criteria is a high SPL. That is the speakers efficiency rating. The speaker you have is probably not that efficient. A +3dB increase in SPL for the speaker will increase the amps volume as much as doubling it's power into the speaker you have now. The distortion will still occur at the same volume knob settings, but the amp will be louder before that happens. So, more clean volume. This isn't going to be earth shattering. Your amp won't be able to handle clubs or anything. It can help for recording volume though. When you need these little amps to shout at least as loud as a singer without cracking up.

If the goal is to get the clean tone you like at club volumes so you can use the amp in a live situation, you could build a line out circuit. It's a really simple circuit. That would allow you to get the basic tone of the amp into a mixer or P.A. console so that it could be bumped up to a more useful volume. There are some circuit particulars that need to be addressed for specific amps so I'll post more on the matter if this interests you.

I'm going to close by saying that what you have is a very cool, but small amplifier. Don't get suckered into expensive upgrades trying to make it into something it's not. You won't need to replace the transformers or do some recommended mod that is supposed make it the bees knees. Avoid that frustration.

[Enzo]

No matter how much the chef does to the lobster, it will never be a steak.

[tedmich]

This amp is a complete dirt box! Its not designed to give clean (non breakup) tone unless you roll off the guitar's volume a ton, no speaker will change this. Maybe try some lower gain tubes in the preamp slot?
12AX7 >5751>12AT7>12AY7>12AV7>12AU7

[Chuck H]

This amp is a complete dirt box! Its not designed to give clean (non breakup) tone unless you roll off the guitar's volume a ton, no speaker will change this. Maybe try some lower gain tubes in the preamp slot?
12AX7 >5751>12AT7>12AY7>12AV7>12AU7

I had assumed the amp was more like a vintage model. I just looked at the schem and I have to agree. It's a dirt box. Designed specifically to be NOT clean. In this case I agree that a lower gain preamp tube is the only solution. But still not a good one since the amp is voiced with the expectation that it will be played dirty. And that isn't going to give a very good clean tone IMHE. What I wrote above still applies, but limited because the amp design does it's best to NOT be clean or very loud in every way possible. Perhaps the worst amp you could choose for the goal in post #1.

EDIT: I wanted to add that while a lower gain preamp tube will make the amp cleaner at higher VOLUME KNOB SETTINGS it WILL NOT make the amp cleaner at a higher volume. The lower gain preamp tube would simply limit the drive to the power tube. It can't change the actual drive level at which the power tube starts to distort. The amp would still have the same amount of clean volume it does now. The distortion character will change some because the preamp won't be adding it's own distortion. So it would be just power tube clipping. Which will sound different. You may like it better.

And I, for one, am glad that lobster can't be steak. Otherwise my surf and turf plate would just be two steaks

[prefix71]

I want to thank everybody who has replied and I have been able to take quite a bit from this.
I take ZERO offense to any comments or remarks as I am a guitar hobbyist and while I have been playing guitar for 30 years I am not and have never been a professional player.
Looks like I am in the market for a nice 20 to 30w tube amp for the extra headroom that I am looking for when "jamming" in my buddy's basement with a drummer.
The "dirt box" stays at home as I get enough clean tones at relative volumes there.

Cheers,

[prefix71]

would this be in order of descending power??

[J M Fahey]

A couple months ago I listened to this tasty woman Blues player (can't remember her name or I'd link to some YT video) who had *killer* sound, and played very well.
Greasy organic very tasty Blues tone (if the description makes sense), she seemed to use the guitar straight into the amp, no pedals.

Curious, I searched for what she was using : none else than a VOX AC4 .

Miked up of course, but the main point is that she wasn't using it as "an amp" by itself, I doubt she even heard it onstage, but as a tasty Blues distortion pedal.

Of course, she controlled it by a guitar volume control and pick pressure combination.

[Malcolm Irving]

... Miked up of course ...

A great thing about miking up a small amp is that the 'boxiness' and 'lack of bass' more or less disappears - provided you have the mike close to the speaker.
The 'proximity effect' brings the bass back for you.

[g1]

Maybe try some lower gain tubes in the preamp slot?
12AX7 >5751>12AT7>12AY7>12AV7>12AU7

would this be in order of descending power??

Yes (Fuzzy's Dead Mouse - 12AX7 Family Tube Substitution).
However, it should be noted that changes will not just be in terms of gain. The circuit is designed around a particular tube, and subbing in a different one will alter the bias and operating point of the tube. So there is more to it than simple gain change.

[prefix71]

Yes (Fuzzy's Dead Mouse - 12AX7 Family Tube Substitution).
However, it should be noted that changes will not just be in terms of gain. The circuit is designed around a particular tube, and subbing in a different one will alter the bias and operating point of the tube. So there is more to it than simple gain change.

Thanks again for the input!
Muchly appreciated.

[Chuck H]

I just want to add to what g1 said... The bias point of the preamp tube will indeed change. That shouldn't be a problem for most amps. You can simply plug preamp tubes in and listen/decide if you like it or not. Power tubes, OTOH, do need to be biased within closer tolerances for performance and reliability. So changing the make of power tube would require more expertise.