Tube amp. Direct VS Mic'd. Tube warmth influence. Difference?

[johnatanasoff]

Isn't the whole point of micing a cabinet to absorb the tube warmth dynamics from the speaker?

My question is: Do you still get tube warmth, organic sound, connecting directly to a tube head, wether for live use or recording; or you need to mic it for that?


As i am looking for a Amp&FX Simulator i am trying to figure things out. If connecting direct still has impact in tube warmth tone i must get Amp&FX Sim with tubes! Otherwise will get a Kemper or Axe FX.

Looking to get 2 FRFR monitors for stereo. So if there is a difference woud be nice to get (natural organic warm tube tone) from them.

[Leo_Gnardo]

Whether the guitar amp is tube or solid state, mic'ing the speaker is the standard way of getting the final product into the recording chain. So much for "tube warmth."

Direct from the amp's output, the signal tends to sound bright and spiky. First time I tried to DI an electric guitar for PA was the last, not acceptable. Since then some products came out that try to emulate the sound of a mic'd speaker, everything from H&K's "Red Box" to Rocktron's "Juice Squeezer" and another similar gadget from Groove Tube. All of 'em roll off top end, roll off low end, put a mid peak here or there, and the fancier ones add some compression/limiting. A couple of amp manufacturers put in DI outputs that have some degree of sonic treatment, usually just a low pass filter iow roll off the highs.

If possible audition the Amp/FX simulators you mention. No guarantee you'll decide to spend extra $$$ for one that actually has tubes. Whichever sounds best to you, get that one tubes or no. One advantage of the tube-free ones, you'll never have to wonder whether the tubes are failing.

[johnatanasoff]

Thanks Leo,

In the case of kemper/axe fx, you can bypass cab and mic, and connect direct, as it simulates both. Less signal loss, less gear.
This is why i asked about tubes; Digitech GSP 2101is a valve preamp processor, Amp/FX simulator.

With Digitech GSP 2101 for ex., will you hear a "tube warmth" difference in a PA/FRFR system?

[Leo_Gnardo]

With Digitech GSP 2101 for ex., will you hear a "tube warmth" difference in a PA/FRFR system?

Can't promise anything. The only way to know is try it out. Anything will make a difference, whether it's a difference that pleases your ears only you can tell. And we know the internet is loaded with plenty of folks who will try to tell you what you ought to think, I think that's bunk, you gotta make your own decisions.

What I do know, Kemper owners seem to be very happy with their purchases. I'm a little worried eventually all these amps & fx will be totally obsolete. Drat, they're so much fun! And that's how we make a living.

I dunno which system it is, one of my customers bought one and besides simulating everything including the kitchen sink, it has simulated mics with which you can mic your simulated speaker (choice of those too) Shure SM57, Sennheiser421, 441, Neumann U87, plenty of others. Just amazing!

[johnatanasoff]

Thats true!
You mean real amps wether solid state or tube will be obsolete; or kemper etc will? If the 1st, it will take a long time!

Your friend's got something like kemper, fractal, helix. Helix ain't good enough.

[Leo_Gnardo]

You mean real amps wether solid state or tube will be obsolete; or kemper etc will? If the 1st, it will take a long time!

The first, amps, fx etc gone obsolete. The only thing that keeps them going, we musos are such gadgeteers. It better take a long long time, It's not practical taking up a new career this late in life.

[johnatanasoff]

hahaha; you sure seem like a white bearded wizard. A technician and engineer?

Some guys like the smell of tubes. That can be emulated as well! But then it's psychologicall and you'l say it's not real tubes lol.
Could be a stubborn thing; but some guitars players still swear by the difference between the real thing VS emulation; sonic wise.

[Leo_Gnardo]

but some guitars players still swear by the difference between the real thing VS emulation; sonic wise.

A good sound is a good sound, however you go about getting it.

White bearded wizard I wish. What's left of the hair is going white, any time I try to grow a beard it's a scraggly Ho Chi Minh special, no Santa Claus here. See Enzo for that!

[johnatanasoff]

hahahahaha

I think Enzo has commented on my threads before.

[Enzo]

I was just walking downtown here a moment ago, and I ran into the kid who calls me "Santa." I'd kill him, but he is the grandson of one of my neighbors her at the home.

You mic a speaker because the speaker is the single item with the most influence on your sound. There are speaker emulators, some better than others. If you like them, fine, if you don't, fine. Just as ther are amp emulators - modelling amps - that some like and some hate.

It isn't about tube versus solid state, the speaker is a major contributor to tone in either case. Not all tube amps are warm, I'd not likely use "warm" describing a 5150.

It is amazing they go so far as to emulate teh different microphones you might use, but do they emulate a variety of speakers? I mean teh Hemp Tone doesn't sopund like a Vintage 30, and so on through a thousand speakers.

Ultimately, just listen to the things, you like the results or you don't, there is no right and wrong. There is what you like and what you don't. It doesn't matter in the slightest whether I like the same things as you do.

[johnatanasoff]

Good point of view, thanks!

Yeah a 5150 is not really warm but you still hear the tubes doing what they do.

Btw axe fx and i think Kemper as well, emulate both microphones, speakers and cabs Yes its state of the art technology!

[Enzo]

Tubes have their way of acting. My point was simply that "tube" does not equal "warm".

[johnatanasoff]

Yep got it!

From your experience why do you consider tubes important sonic and feel wise?

Old school guitar tube head distortion comes more from the output tubes. Harder to master. But no one cares about this nowadays.

[Enzo]

Old school guitar tube head distortion comes more from the output tubes

'Scuse me?? A 5150 may not be old school, but it doesn't make clean even on 1 at the master. A typical Vintage Marshall has no trouble overdriving in the preamp. Power tube distortion ONLY occurs at full power output - overdriving the outputs. I suspect most of us do not play our 100 watts flat out maxed.

Most amps I like are tube, but I really don't approach it like that. I like an amp or I don't, and I only care if it has tubes after the fact.

[johnatanasoff]

'Scuse me?? A 5150 may not be old school, but it doesn't make clean even on 1 at the master. A typical Vintage Marshall has no trouble overdriving in the preamp. Power tube distortion ONLY occurs at full power output - overdriving the outputs. I suspect most of us do not play our 100 watts flat out maxed.

Most amps I like are tube, but I really don't approach it like that. I like an amp or I don't, and I only care if it has tubes after the fact.

I don't yet understand much on Preamp/Power/Output tubes. I know trainwreck's dist comes more from the output tubes.
You're right about liking an amp or not. What i have realized myself is that cranked SS amps like line 6 spider grate my ears while tube amps even when really loud do not.
I think the ears like cranked tubes better for some reason...