Auditioning and choosing speakers

[Mark Hammer]

I was reading a review of an amp today, and the reviewer emphasize what a good choice the particular Celestion speaker was for that amp.

Some of us have the luxury of being able to compare speakers, perhaps by going through them like consumables. But most of us are somewhat obliged to rely on recommendations and reviews.

So I was wondering: have you come across commercial outlets of any sort, where you've been able to use a single amp/head to drive a variety of identical cabs with different speakers, and switch back and forth between them to find out what you prefer?

Admittedly, such an affair would be a bit pricey for the dealer, and also take up space, but even, say, a quartet of 1 x 12" cabs, driven by the same amp, would allow one to compare efficiency, bandwidth, resonances, etc., in a meaningful way. The consumer can then look at the listed specs of what's in the cab, and have a better idea of what means what when looking through specs of other speakers. Simply auditioning a speaker in a very different cab, driven by a different amp, whose volume pot might have a different taper, or use different tubes, is a suboptimal way to compare speakers.

[dmartn149]

That would be a great way to audition speakers, but I wonder what % of buyers would then order on line. Not such a great deal for the retailer.

[Enzo]

That warning could be applied to just about everything sold in a music store.

[dmartn149]

That warning could be applied to just about everything sold in a music store.

or any "brick n mortar" store. Kind of ironic that Sears is closing more stores since they pretty much invented home delivery of ordered items, pre-internet obviously.

[eschertron]

That warning could be applied to just about everything sold in a music store.

I had a salesperson at a local mom & pop store actually thank me for not returning a piece of equipment after purchase (the store had a generous 2 week no-questions-asked policy). Apparently this store was a victim of 'return and buy online'; they closed some time after this encounter.

[g1]

I think the cab has so much impact that it would still be very difficult to get a proper idea.
I seem to recall seeing such a scenario for car audio, but never for MI gear.

[Mark Hammer]

You're probably right about the impact of cab. But then almost every amp has a different cab anyway. It would be nice to be able to hold cab and amp constant, and the only varying element would be the speaker.

[bob p]

there's nothing in the world that i hate more than speaker swapping in a tone quest. ok, maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration, but i really do hate it.

i'm at the point where i know what speakers i like, and i keep a few cabs around that represent my favorite tonal options. then if the amp isn't friendly with those options, i mod the amp.

[Gnobuddy]

...use a single amp/head...with different speakers...switch back and forth between them

We had something like this in the audio electronics company I worked for many years ago, and I guess it wasn't uncommon in Hi-Fi shops, back when such things existed. That was with solid-state power amps driving the speakers.

With (valve) guitar amps, there is some additional complexity to deal with. We all know bad things happen if you remove the load from a (valve) guitar amp while it's powered on and putting out a signal, so speaker switching will have to be done in some way that guarantees there will always be a reasonable load on the output of the amp.

A starting point might be to just use make-before-break switches. But what happens if you have a four-way switch, and only three speaker cabs are actually hooked up? Switch to the (missing) fourth position, and your amp fries its output transformer.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a simple way to guarantee the continued good health of the guitar amp. It seems to me you'd need some fairly elaborate protective circuitry to pull this off; maybe something that monitors voltage and current in the speaker leads from the guitar amp, and keeps a dummy load switched in until it calculates that loading conditions are okay, and the dummy load can be switched out of circuit.

-Gnobuddy

[Mark Hammer]

That's an entirely reasonable position. The challenge is that there are a lot of folks like myself who don't spend hours and hours with different amps, cabs, and such, gaining familiarity with current and past production models, and the reviews and spec sheets are generally not a sound (sic) basis for selecting and ordering something.

[Mark Hammer]

VERY realistic and practical considerations.

In response to the comments of others who noted the dismaying tendency for folks to audition in a bricks-and-mortar store but spend their money in a virtual/on-line retailer.

Is there enough audio capacity in the average end-users on-line system, that samples of the same guitar lines, played through the same amp with the same settings, and sampled at the same distance from different speakers in the same cab, could provide an opportunity to get a better idea of whether a given speaker is more in line with what you want or need?

I.E., is there a way to do what I'm suggesting that does NOT require a bricks-and-mortar retailer to carry out?

[bob p]

I don't think so, Mark. I tried setting up a high fidelity system running my computer output into a stereo system, then a pro-sound system. While it was better than listening though cheap PC speakers, or even a decent set of small monitors, there was a nagging problem that nullified remote hifi auditioning a practical exercise, namely that there isn't any consistency in how people record, and even if they make a good recording, Youtube is going to crappify it. Unfortunately there's enough recording variability that it's nearly impossible to make meaningful comparisons. that's how it worked out for me, anyway. I have to do my comparisons in person.

[Mark Hammer]

I agree that live is probably best, and also agree that pitting gear against other gear on Youtube is a bit of a fool's errand.

At the same time, if an honest comparison can be presented, that goes above and beyond what normally passes for shootouts on Youtube, there can be reasonable value. So, player wanks away, and the same sample is played through the same amp with the same settings through the same cab, mic'd the same way, but with different speakers. Turn the volume up, and record the sample through the various speakers all over again.

The overall loudness will not be accurately represented, and in most instances, nor will the bass. And unless the demo is an hour long, the full range of tonal properties of a speaker, with different playing styles, and different EQ settings, will not likely be factored in. But, within limits, one ought to be able to get a sense of relative efficiency and resonances, which is often a helluva lot more than print representations provide.

I don't know that anyone should rely on such hypothetical demos, but they would be a good supplement to allow for a fairer and more fulsome comparison.

[J M Fahey]

Brick and mortar shops should apply a 20% restocking fee on stuff returned for NO reason, which about covers "online discount" price difference.

As of demoing spakers, at least Eminence has a display panel orn shallow cabinet, say 4f by 6ft or so, with some 8 speakers mounted and a switching selector.

Cabinet has importance on deepest/lowest octave but none at all on mids/high mids which is where most guitar frequency, and specially "voice" lies.

It´s very easy to notice a 3dB louder speaker, or a scooped one or ashrillicepick one vs a smooth smokey one.

All those differences come from huge peaks and dips in the 500Hz to 3500Hz area, which leave speaker cone surface and are beamed forward without even noticing the cabinet.

Then there´s comparison videos: same guitar, player, amp, cabinet and settings.
You´ll notice what I mentioned earlier: deal break or make are all in the midrange section.
Differences are **amazing**

I (internally) laugh when people spend weeks arguing capacitor colour, tube make or plate colour, when differences are at most small while speaker differences are bone crushing.
And yet there´s little or no discussion about that,or at most very slight compared to what you can clearly hear above.

[nickb]

We had something like this in the audio electronics company I worked for many years ago, and I guess it wasn't uncommon in Hi-Fi shops, back when such things existed. That was with solid-state power amps driving the speakers.

With (valve) guitar amps, there is some additional complexity to deal with. We all know bad things happen if you remove the load from a (valve) guitar amp while it's powered on and putting out a signal, so speaker switching will have to be done in some way that guarantees there will always be a reasonable load on the output of the amp.

A starting point might be to just use make-before-break switches. But what happens if you have a four-way switch, and only three speaker cabs are actually hooked up? Switch to the (missing) fourth position, and your amp fries its output transformer.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a simple way to guarantee the continued good health of the guitar amp. It seems to me you'd need some fairly elaborate protective circuitry to pull this off; maybe something that monitors voltage and current in the speaker leads from the guitar amp, and keeps a dummy load switched in until it calculates that loading conditions are okay, and the dummy load can be switched out of circuit.

-Gnobuddy

Just mute the amp while switching.