Bugera 412TS -- Any Experiences?

[bob p]

I need another 4x12 like I need a hole in the head. No, I'm not interested in buying another one. But I saw this ad on ebay and it made me wonder... can these things possibly be any good?

BUGERA 412TS 4x12" Guitar Speaker Cabinet w/ TURBOSOUND Speakers Slant Angled



Music1 / Bugera is selling factory refubished 412TS guitar cabs on ebay for $210 shipped. Shipped!

Wow, that's cheap. New gear that cheap is going to absolutely KILL the resale value of used Bugera gear on CL. This gives me pause to wonder if these things can possibly be any good.

I have reason to wonder, because I recently bought Bugera V22 amps that came with their own Bugera/Turbosound branded speakers and I'm amazed by how good the little things actually sound.

I'm wondering if these German-designed Chinese-manufactured 4x12 cabs are worth looking into for anyone who is interested in tone on a budget. I'd have to expect that these things are made out of MDF instead of marine grade plywood, but the most modern HiFi speakers are made out of MDF because of it's resonance characteristics.

I'm just wondering if anyone has experience with these, as a decent-sounding low-priced Chinese 4x12 would be an interesting slap in the face to the high priced cabs that seem to predominate in the market. Based on what I've seen so far, Bugera has done pretty well in terms of bringing decent quality amps to the low cost market.

Why is Bugera dumping gear so cheap on ebay? It makes me wonder if their parting ways with GC is forcing them to liquidate inventory through whatever channels might be available to them.

[Chuck H]

I don't have experience with those cabinets and I'm not sure why they're saturating the market, but it's happened before. There was a $h!t ton of Crate amps (Palomino-V32?) dumped on the market uber cheap a few years ago. Many had problems because of stresses on the board and excess heat due to the layout. I fixed two for a friend that "knew a guy" and got them for a hundred bucks each. I heard a couple of rumors about how all those amps got into the low brow resale market so cheaply, I think it had something to do with Crate not wanting to sell them under warranty, fix them or dump them. Perhaps it was a large run intended for Musicians Friend/GC or something and they were defective or refused. So they were sold in lots to whomever thought they could turn them for a profit with no warranty or obligation to Crate/Loud. They sounded fine once repaired. Pretty good actually. So...

"I" would suspect something similar for those cabinets. Since I can't cheaply repair speakers OR rattling MDF cabinets with glued baffles I'd probably skip this "deal" myself. But then there's no way to know if you don't buy one.

long ago I gigged a stereo rig with a pair of slant top 2x12 cabs that could be placed together to make a symmetrical 4x12 type profile. I had those cabinets made from MDF. They sounded great.

EDIT: FWIW those cabinets retail for $299 with free shipping. I don't know what list price is.

[bob p]

I'm not even shopping for a 4x12. I just thought it worth asking about these cabs because Behringer has come out with some gear that gives a lot of bang for the buck, and I thought the $210 shipped price was noteworthy. I couldn't build an empty MDF cab for that price.

I don't think they're doing the Loud/Crate thing, getting rid of stock without being encumbered by warranties. Bugera's "refurb" stuff is all being sold with full warranties, and the same models are still being sold as new/warranty in the stores and haven't been discontinued, so there has to be something else going on.

I recently bought a pair of V22 as cheap amps to leave in a practice space. I bought them as refurb/warranty on ebay because the price was the same as the used/no-warranty price on CL. Much to my surprise, I didn't receive refurbished amps. I received brand new amps in sealed factory packaging that were shipped from the factory warehouse.

[Enzo]

Just idle thinking, may have no relation to reality...

What if they made a bunch of heads, and were expecting head buyers to buy 4x12 cabs to go with, and then no one bought the cabs, just heads. What do you do with all the extra cabs? Blow them out.

[bob p]

that makes sense. bugera seems to have a lot of stuff in the pipeline that they're trying to move: lots of combos, lots of heads and now cabs. it seems like they're overproducing them and dropping price rather than scaling back production. but the idea of selling new or as-new units as refurbs at 30% off and undercutting their new units at the stores has got to have the stores hopping mad, if that's what's happening. retailers don't like manufacturers to compete with them in the retail channel. that would be good for consumers but bad for stores.

[Chuck H]

...but the idea of selling new or as-new units as refurbs at 30% off and undercutting their new units at the stores has got to have the stores hopping mad, if that's what's happening. retailers don't like manufacturers to compete with them in the retail channel. that would be good for consumers but bad for stores.

That's the next thing I thought of. I don't think it would go over if you were an average competitor, but when you're the company that accounts for fifty percent of MF and GC amp sales and you're not IN this country MAYBE you can get away with it. Certainly an "Aw f#@K" from the retailers doesn't even get mentioned at board meetings.

[Enzo]

It is also quite possible they are moving out existing inventory in anticipation of a new look line. Or even a whole revamp. I have no idea, but like when PV changed from the pointy logo to the oval one. What if Behringer is coming out with a cosmetic overhaul of the line and doesn't want to compete with itself, so blow out the old before bringing in the new. Just like model year end sales of cars every year. "We gotta blow out all these 2017s to make room for the 2018s." I don't need to think anything nefarious.

[potatofarmer]

Well, the listing says "refurbished" so I'm guessing they've had a ton of returns.

They did this a year or two ago with their pre-Infinium (Infinitum?) heads; I think their plexi-style head was around $250. Permanently destroying the used value and I could be wrong but I think a few people who bought the "refurbished" heads still got duds. Even worse they released two or three waves of these refurbs.

[bob p]

Well, the listing says "refurbished" so I'm guessing they've had a ton of returns.

I don't agree that all of these amps are refurbished or returns, thereby implying that the Bugera amps have a manufacturing problem. I've bought several Bugera amps, three in total; a pair of the V22 EL84 combos and a 120W 6L6 head. Each one of them was sold as "refurbished" but not one of them was actually refurbished and not one of them was an open-box return. Every single one of them was a brand-new amp, shipped from the factory warehouse (not the repair center), in the original double-boxed packaging, with all the factory seals intact. Upon opening them they were obviously brand-new. No dust, no fingerprints, no scuff marks on the feet, no signs of disassembly/reassembly, no signs that the amp had ever been out of it's original box. These amps were obviously brand new and not refurbished or returns.

Like you said, "refurbished" could mean that they've got a ton of returns. It could also mean that they're nefariously circumventing the restriction against selling brand new gear below the Minimum Advertised Price (MAP) that they place on their retail affiliates.

GC does this with inventory that doesn't move. When they have a guitar model in inventory that doesn't turn over, they'll take a brand new guitar with all of the case candy, remove the warranty card, and ship it to one of the retail stores to be sold as "used." The fact that they're selling it as a used instrument and not a new one makes them exempt from the MAP price agreement with the manufacturer. I've bought several guitars this way, where it was obvious that they were being sold as used even though they had never been played.

If a retail outlet like GC is smart enough to work through this loophole to bypass the manufacturer's MAP restrictions then there's no doubt that a manufacturer like Bugera knows about it too. The difference is that in the GC example the retail store is violating the manufacturer's MAP for their own benefit / at the expense of the manufacturer, while in the Bugera example the manufacturer is violating their own MAP price agreement for their own benefit / at the expense of the retail store.

There's a lot of nefarious behavior in music retail. Everyone works through loopholes to maximize their profits.

They did this a year or two ago with their pre-Infinium (Infinitum?) heads; I think their plexi-style head was around $250. Permanently destroying the used value and I could be wrong but I think a few people who bought the "refurbished" heads still got duds. Even worse they released two or three waves of these refurbs.

Selling off the pre-Infinium heads dirt cheap would be an example of Enzo's idea of blowing out a discontinued model. That happens all the time in retail. Production hitting the street in waves is also normal. These amps get shipped from China by the container and arrive in bursts. Blowing out a discontinued model, and doing so in waves is something that is totally normal, something that is to be expected. Nothing at all nefarious about that.

Selling off the Infinium amps dirt cheap is the thing that I find interesting. Those are not discontinued models. Those are current-production amps. In this case the manufacturer is blowing out current-production models through a parallel outlet that bypasses their own retail base. If those amps are indeed new amps being blown out through a parallel sales channel that bypasses the retailers, then the retailers have legitimate reason to be upset.