Schematics, Copyright and Trademark Law, Fabrication Techniques, and The Psychology of Logo Design

[Dolmetscher007]

Note: This thread was created from posts that wandered from the original topic of the thread in which they originated. It was closed because of the personal beef that began to erupt at the bottom.

I went to the Googles and typed in, 'Fender Champ 5F1 schematic,' and there seem to be... quite a number of schematics out there. Some look hand-drawn, others look more official, and some look kinda half-way official. What is the general consencious on scheamtics online? I'm sure that someone with enough knowledge could fairly easily draw a schematic just by looking at the guts of an amp. But, I have a couple of schematic-related questions:

• Does Fender/Marshall/Vox/MesaBoogie ever actually publish their schematics?
• Does one amp company ever sue another amp company for copying their amp circuits, but like changing the outer aesthetic and the name?
• Certainly all guitar amps use basically the same "family" of circuits, NFB, CFC-filters, Tone Controls, etc... at what point can an amp company say, "THIS... is our desgin!" and patent it, or whatever?
• If someone does buy, say, a Fender 5F1 Champ, and they sit down with it, take it apart, and draw up a dead-accurate schematic that would allow anyone to build their own Champ... if they put that on the internet, is that illegal?
• Is it illegal to download that schematic, build one, and sell it... either as your own amp, or flat out saying... "Built to exact Fender Champ 5F1 specifications"... is that illegal (other than using the Fender name without permission)?

Just to be clear, I am 100% only interested in asking these questions because I am a total curious George and want to know stuff. In no way do I have any desire to DO anything that is unethical, illegal, or even rude. Ha ha ha. I just have always wondered things like this. I know that Samsung, Apple, and all the smart phone companies are always in court claiming intellectual property theft. But with tube guitar amps, I don't really see how one amp comapny could ever say that they have the special sauce that someone else have copied or stollen. But... what do I know?

[eschertron]

Up until recently, Fender did maintain a web page with access to a great number of schematics. Some looked 'more official' than others. I'm guessing that since all the 50s era amp schems were hand-drawn, nobody bothered to updated them. Which is actually a good thing for historical accuracy. I'm not sure why they discontinued that particular service of making schems available.

The rest of your questions are really good, and will lead you neck-deep into a a legalistic can of worms. The short version is that it's all a very interesting read, a few proper keywords will google about anything you'd want to know.

MEF does have a forum for schematics here at 'schematics requests'.

[Dolmetscher007]

Up until recently, Fender did maintain a web page with access to a great number of schematics. Some looked 'more official' than others. I'm guessing that since all the 50s era amp schems were hand-drawn, nobody bothered to updated them. Which is actually a good thing for historical accuracy. I'm not sure why they discontinued that particular service of making schems available.

The rest of your questions are really good, and will lead you neck-deep into a a legalistic can of worms. The short version is that it's all a very interesting read, a few proper keywords will google about anything you'd want to know.

MEF does have a forum for schematics here at 'schematics requests'.

I apologize guys.

I posted before I looked. Based on some great advice I got here on MEF, I ordered "Electric Guitar Amplifier Handbook" by Jack Darr. It came in yesterday, but I didn't have a chance to look at it last night. I posted all these questions this morning, and just now, at lunch, I flipped through it and lo-and-behold there are several dozen schematics in this book! It says in the preface that the author worked with Fender/Ampeg/Gretsch... etc. so I imagine these are all directly from those manufacturers. It is noteworthy to me that Marshall, one of the most famous brands, does not have a single schematic presented, when even Sears Silvertone does. That tells me that Marshall is either not high on the author's list of favs, or that Marshall is more closed-off to the idea of sharing their designs. Doesn't matter to me... just noticed.

[J M Fahey]

typed in, 'Fender Champ 5F1 schematic,' and there seem to be... quite a number of schematics out there. Some look hand-drawn, others look more official, and some look kinda half-way official.

The circuit itself is always the same ... hard to make anything simpler anyway.

[*]Does Fender/Marshall/Vox/MesaBoogie ever actually publish their schematics?

Yes.
Not as in "now you freely use that schematic for profit", in fact all add some notice to the contrary, but they HAVE at least for offer Servicing, then those "leak out" so some brands (Fender for example) generally post at least the oldest models.
A few NEVER EVER publish them and menace those who have access to keep quiet, so amp MUST be returned at least to an Authorized Service Center and sometimes to a collection center where they are shipped to Italy or Sweden or whatever , a PITA.

[*]Does one amp company ever sue another amp company for copying their amp circuits, but like changing the outer aesthetic and the name?

Hardly ever, BUT: big companies avoid gross infringement, legal battles are VERY expensive, and small fry, Boutique or home builders simply are not worth it.

[*]Certainly all guitar amps use basically the same "family" of circuits, NFB, CFC-filters, Tone Controls, etc... at what point can an amp company say, "THIS... is our desgin!" and patent it, or whatever?

Anybody can claim anything, patenting is complex and defending patents in Court is generally suicidal.

[*]If someone does buy, say, a Fender 5F1 Champ, and they sit down with it, take it apart, and draw up a dead-accurate schematic that would allow anyone to build their own Champ... if they put that on the internet, is that illegal?

A champ is 60 years old, so one way or another, it´s sort of unenforceable.
Illegal? .... ask a Patent attorney but in general suing *you* isn´t worth it.

[*]Is it illegal to download that schematic, build one, and sell it... either as your own amp, or flat out saying... "Built to exact Fender Champ 5F1 specifications"... is that illegal (other than using the Fender name without permission)?

No big deal on building it and for a small fish building a couple ... no worth suing, but you can be stopped in your tracks if you even *mention* the Fender BRAND which is easily enforceable and very much alive, plus Courts acknowledge owner rights in seconds, since it´s EASY to prove, as easy as comparing the word F-E-N-D-E-R used by you to the word F-E-N-D-E-R registered by them.

Somebody can sell his cloned or homemade amplifier on EBay or Craigslist and claim "same circuit as fender Champ" and no big deal, but if, say, Peavey or some established manufacturer or even a small 5-amps-a-month builder who sells to shops or advertises in his own page does so, he´ll usually find himself in hot water.
Starting with a cease-and-desist attorney letter to merchandise forfeiting and fines to paying big legal damage.

Successful kit cloners such as Ceriatone, popular and who provide good clones of almost everything, carefully avoid that.

Just to be clear, I am 100% only interested in asking these questions because I am a total curious George and want to know stuff. In no way do I have any desire to DO anything that is unethical, illegal, or even rude. Ha ha ha. I just have always wondered things like this. I know that Samsung, Apple, and all the smart phone companies are always in court claiming intellectual property theft.

But there sales are HOT, measured in many Millions of Dollars, and there is constant real Tech innovation ... none of that applies to tired old retired Senior oldstyle tube amps.

But with tube guitar amps, I don't really see how one amp comapny could ever say that they have the special sauce that someone else have copied or stollen. But... what do I know?

Fender can justly claim that.

Brand new, a Fender Champ re-issue is $999. Wow! I've done a little investigation, and it looks to me like you could build this little guy for <$99, assuming you really went DIY and made your own chassis and everything. I may be wrong about that. I often massively UNDERestimate the cost of building something myself.

CAN you home build the chassis?
Wow!!!

In fact, (not to get off-topic, but... ) the idea of saving money through DIY is probably one of the biggest myths of the century, in my estimation. Whether it's homebrewing beer, making your own furniture, hell... even cooking your own meals... by the time you buy a couple of new tools, pay shipping on this or that, not to mention the cost of starting over when you destroy whatever it is you're making, because you are not good at it yet... DIY seems to offer very little cost-savings, across the board. Yet, the sweet song of "DIY and save money" seems to always come back. Ha ha ha.

The key is something called "economy of scale"
Buying a $10part costs $10 ..... + Shipping, which may also be $10 (I´m just using nice round numbers to simplify examples) so even when buying, you must think scale.
Such as buying 2 or more to split shipping costs.

Now to make 1 , suppose it's a small rectangular piece of Aluminum with a 10mm jack hole in the center and 4 x 3.5mm screw holes in the corners (it´s a speaker cabinet jack holder plate) you must at least buy 1 square foot of Aluminum , have it cut in 2" by 2" squares, buy a cheap hand drill, 2 10mm and 3.5mm bits, have everything shipped, and we are talking asome $100 in total.
For just one, no way.

But that same $100 actually gives you 36 (thirty six, do the math) jack plates so if you are commercially making cabinets, now each plate costs $100/36=2.78$ ... an unbeatable price,lower than what any shop pays wholesale, so IF you are going to use them, it´s very much woth investing in machinery and wholesale buying raw materials.

I have been making guitars amplifiers since 1969, sold some 14000 of them so far, always invested in machinery , tools and dies and "all machines were eventually FREE" , they self pay in an relatively short time (1 year or less) but of course you must sell a lot to make up for that.

NOW that work/sales have paid for machinery, my costs are what´s called the "marginal cost" , the cost of making "just one more" ... which usually is nil.

Many hate me in Argentina and take turns to bash me in Music Forums (same as Crate or Peavey or Bugera are bashed in USA ... simply because they sell cheap) because of my incredible prices.

But ... I make Celestion or Jensen or Eminence quality 12" speakers for $15 ... 100W power transformers for $15, 100W SS amp chassis, fully punched, painted and silkscreened for $10, PCBs for a 100W Guitar amp for $8 and so on.

Friends pay $15/20 for a PCB set, either locally or half that but then must pay freight from China, so cost again rises.

Me? I can make 72 100W amp + supply PCBs (large ones, 4" by 10") for less than $60 , so 80 something cents each (typical Chinese "special offer" applies to 2" by 2" ones, tiny useless for me)

This is a batch of 36 PCBs with sprayed on flux drying up:



so the correct answer is: yes, you can profitably home/own make stuff, the big question is: "how many?"

[soundmasterg]

There are a bunch of schematics available here:

https://hoffmanamps.com/

as well as a great forum with lots of resources for building and parts.

I think Marshall schematics weren't in the Jack Darr book because he was American and that book came out perhaps before Marshall was a big name. Feel free to pick and choose and grab pieces of whatever schematics you want for your own builds. If you try to grab something or copy a schematic of a current production amp from one of the big companies and try to sell it yourself as your own product, then you might run into trouble.

Greg

[Dolmetscher007]

CAN you home build the chassis?
Wow!!!

Hey Juan, (*or is it Juan-Manuel, or Mr. Fahey?),

Thanks for your responses. That was very cool! Lots of awesome information. I was pretty much just kidding about the cost of DIY stuff. I mean, it IS true what I said, that making one of anything costs a lot. In my weird example, if my "character" had gone to Pier 1 Imports, seen the item, decided to make it himself... instead of going to a big box store and buying one of everything, if he would spend several weeks calling suppliers, pulling together some capitol, and sourcing large quantities of each part... then he could def. bring down the cost per unit from whatever, $350+ down to probably <$100 easily.

And I have to be honest, I am very impressed that you are basically doing that! I did not know that you actually manugacture and sell amplifiers in Argentina. Do you have a website where I can go have a look at them? That is very cool!

Personally, I do not have the personality to endure making amps, pickups, guitars, or really anything on any kind of mass scale, trying to run a business. No, I like my career as it is—I just love having all of my hobbies... that I take very seriously.

About me making the chassis myself... Believe it or not, I can. I do not have the ability to chrome plate anything, so any chassis that I build has to be powder coated or lacquered and clear coated. But I have a sheet metal bender. I have made some 18 gauge (too think btw) chassis for friends. I have a MIG welder, and they come out really professional looking. I really want to get into photo-resist film with acid-etching. You can basically print out, onto clear plastic sheets, the whole layout that you'd like to burn into your chassis: VOLUME, TONE, ON/OFF, STAND BY etc... Then wash the steel with degreaser and then acetone. Then apply a photo-resist film that is UV light sensetive. Lay the plastic layout sheet that you printed over the film, and expose it to UV light using some special compact bulbs that blast UV light. Then you wash the unexposed resist away using a mild alkalai solution (baking soda + water) Then you mask off the back of the metal with clear tape (so that it won't eat into the metal) and drop the whole thing into warm ferrous chloride. Leave it out in the sun for 2 hours or so, then pull out your etched metal sheet. Wash it up... and then put shellac-wax into the etched lines/areas, and presto... a very professional looking echted chassis. (You can paint/lacquer/powder-coat the metal before you put in the wax-shellac it.

Thanks again for your help JMF... very cool to read about your amps and PCBs.

[J M Fahey]

Thanks

Glad you can do the metalworking part, it's a big problem for most, in fact even Fender and same league Factories order them from outside builders.
A few, like Traynor, do their own.

Glad you can photo-etch them too.

As of finishing, chrome or any other metal plating is better ordered outside, chemicals involved are very nasty and most good baths include Cyanide.

You can powder coat small parts in an oven , and paint chassis with tough paints, including Epoxy or 2 component polyurethane.

I use aluminum which worst case can be left unfinished, ugly but does not rust, but my normal finish is painting over wash primer which etches the surface and grabs it very well.

[Dolmetscher007]

I use aluminum which worst case can be left unfinished, ugly but does not rust, but my normal finish is painting over wash primer which etches the surface and grabs it very well.

Do you have a website where I can see your amps?

[J M Fahey]

Not really, but this is what I showed at the last AES Pro Audio show:



Or what I am currently offering at our local EBay associated sales page.

https://eshops.mercadolibre.com.ar/juanfahey

[Dolmetscher007]

Man! How f*****g cool it must be to be able to stand next to a mountain of amplifiers that you built yourself.

I once hade a conversation with a college professor way back when I was 18 or 19 and actually had the goofy notion that I wanted to get a PhD myself one day. He said that there is an intense satisfaction when you get that PhD, in knowing that you are now a member of a group of people that only make up between 2-3% of the population (the US population that is). Well... think about how many people in the world have ever built a guitar amplifier with their own two hands. Let alone... stacks and stacks of them. You get a rousing round of applaus from me Brother! I'm impressed.

I work in software and web development for a living, so if you ever need any help or want to talk about getting together a website to showcase your stuff... for things like this I would deffinitely help you out, completly only in exchange and as a thank you for all the help and information you've already helped me with. Just something to think about.

Also... I wanted to say one thing that is kind of off-topic, but also fits, I think...

As you said... Peavey, Crate, and Bugera, have a reputation for being, "not serious amplifiers," or maybe... "not of impeccable quality and tone" the way a Fender, Marshall, Vox, etc. are worshiped by guitarists. I do not think, however that the price of their amps is the nail in that coffin. I think it is their marketing and advertising. I genuinely think that 99% of their perception problems start at the very heart of their company's image... their logo! It sounds SO foolish, but I think it is very true.

Hartley Peavey designed the Peavey logo in 1959 when he was a senior in high school. Think about that. Would you want a 17 year old boy to be in charge of your amplifier empire's marketing department? Don't get me wrong... it's not "ugly" or... bad... or any of those judgemental words. When it comes to logos, to me, it is all about what the logo communicates to the viewer. And the Peavey logo communicates... "futuristic" kitsch from the mind of a 1950's teenager that really likes the fins on his dad's 57' Chevy. And that, I think would even be a kind way to put it. Because most people did not reaaaaallly come to know Peavey as an amp company until the late 70's, mostly the early 80's... it has less 1950's future-kitsch, and more... hmm... monster-truck rally, sleeveless t-shirt, GRAVE DIGGER \m/ fuck yeah! \m/... kinda vibe. And as much as I love a good overly-masculine beer bash in the mud as much as the next guy... you don't want that near your amp company's image. Here is a great example of somewhere else that I saw this...



The Carolina Panthers NFL football team logo when they first started was terrible. It literally screamed... redneck, tracktor pull. Evenrually, when they realized that no one wanted to actually wear a shirt that looks like it came from WalMart... they changed to a slightly more sophisticated logo that still has some horizontal movement by being italicized and with some classy minimalistic "swooshy" things in the letters.

Then Peavey also has the ultra rough tolex that feels like a coating of plastic around the amps. That stuff is so rough, if you brush my old Bandit in shorts, you might walk away with road-rash. The knobs were all too small, too close together, and made of the the cheapest plastic. Not only that, the pots seemed flimsy and like you could easily break off a knob if you tried. Whereas my Marshall head feel like I could pick the heavy ass thing up by a volume knob and throw it. I know that 100% of all those decisions were made to keep costs down, so that they could sell 600,000 amps at $400, instead of 12,000 amps at $2,000. Economy's of scale kick in, R&D costs are lower, and in general, having a "bad year" at Peavey was annoying, but not catostrophic, where as a high-end amp company has a 20% dip one year, and they might be done right there.

But regardless of price-point, or market share... if Peavey would have spent $25 more per amp to upgrade some of their materials, and $5 more per amp on a more "classic, inviting, timeless, and thought-leader'type aesthetic"... the magazine critics would have been kinder to them, they'd get more celebrity endorcements than just EVH, and when you'd see one in a music store, you would have a different instant reaction to the amps.

But then again... if they did that... maybe more mom's would buy their 13 year old sons some other amp company's $299 amp, and then Peavey'd be too sophisticated looking for mom, but not sophisticated enough for Keith Richards. And they'd be fucked. So...

I dunno.

MAN... I sure can ramble huh?

[J M Fahey]

Thanks,it´s very kind of you.

And res, actually selling and keeping it running year after year is difficult ... keeping a band running year after year is the same.

Everything "Artistic" related is difficult to predict at best.

Of course reading the Monday papers (or watching Sunday late News) everybody knows for sure why A team won, B team lost, and exactly what moves would have saved them.

Same here, after the fact we know why Fender and Marshall (just to name a couple) lasted so many years while many similar quality level brands disappeared.
Oh well.

[J M Fahey]

Thisn is the newborn baby, still in diapers



No really Clean channel, so no Green Leds; Orange is Marshallish, think Zeppelin to AC-DC; Red is aggressive Metal, Soldanish high gain, think Van Halen to Megadeath.

All Fet and Mosfet, "200W limited to 100W" so tube type waveforms, analog generated, are not squashed into square SS boredom when played LOUD.

[Dolmetscher007]

All Fet and Mosfet...
200 Watts limited to 100 Watts...
Tube waveforms that are not squashed into square SS boredom...
Best enjoyed LOUD...

Sold...! I would love to hear this thing! Do you have any demo's online?
How much are you selling it for?

[pdf64]

Juan put a load of info about screen printing / his front panels in this thread over on TGP https://www.thegearpage.net/board/in...inting.1624155

[nosaj]

Man! How f*****g cool it must be to be able to stand next to a mountain of amplifiers that you built yourself.

I once hade a conversation with a college professor way back when I was 18 or 19 and actually had the goofy notion that I wanted to get a PhD myself one day. He said that there is an intense satisfaction when you get that PhD, in knowing that you are now a member of a group of people that only make up between 2-3% of the population (the US population that is). Well... think about how many people in the world have ever built a guitar amplifier with their own two hands. Let alone... stacks and stacks of them. You get a rousing round of applaus from me Brother! I'm impressed.

I work in software and web development for a living, so if you ever need any help or want to talk about getting together a website to showcase your stuff... for things like this I would deffinitely help you out, completly only in exchange and as a thank you for all the help and information you've already helped me with. Just something to think about.

Also... I wanted to say one thing that is kind of off-topic, but also fits, I think...

As you said... Peavey, Crate, and Bugera, have a reputation for being, "not serious amplifiers," or maybe... "not of impeccable quality and tone" the way a Fender, Marshall, Vox, etc. are worshiped by guitarists. I do not think, however that the price of their amps is the nail in that coffin. I think it is their marketing and advertising. I genuinely think that 99% of their perception problems start at the very heart of their company's image... their logo! It sounds SO foolish, but I think it is very true.[ATTACH=CONFIG]51429[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]51430[/ATTACH]

Hartley Peavey designed the Peavey logo in 1959 when he was a senior in high school. Think about that. Would you want a 17 year old boy to be in charge of your amplifier empire's marketing department? Don't get me wrong... it's not "ugly" or... bad... or any of those judgemental words. When it comes to logos, to me, it is all about what the logo communicates to the viewer. And the Peavey logo communicates... "futuristic" kitsch from the mind of a 1950's teenager that really likes the fins on his dad's 57' Chevy. And that, I think would even be a kind way to put it. Because most people did not reaaaaallly come to know Peavey as an amp company until the late 70's, mostly the early 80's... it has less 1950's future-kitsch, and more... hmm... monster-truck rally, sleeveless t-shirt, GRAVE DIGGER \m/ fuck yeah! \m/... kinda vibe. And as much as I love a good overly-masculine beer bash in the mud as much as the next guy... you don't want that near your amp company's image. Here is a great example of somewhere else that I saw this...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]51431[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]51432[/ATTACH]

The Carolina Panthers NFL football team logo when they first started was terrible. It literally screamed... redneck, tracktor pull. Evenrually, when they realized that no one wanted to actually wear a shirt that looks like it came from WalMart... they changed to a slightly more sophisticated logo that still has some horizontal movement by being italicized and with some classy minimalistic "swooshy" things in the letters.

Then Peavey also has the ultra rough tolex that feels like a coating of plastic around the amps. That stuff is so rough, if you brush my old Bandit in shorts, you might walk away with road-rash. The knobs were all too small, too close together, and made of the the cheapest plastic. Not only that, the pots seemed flimsy and like you could easily break off a knob if you tried. Whereas my Marshall head feel like I could pick the heavy ass thing up by a volume knob and throw it. I know that 100% of all those decisions were made to keep costs down, so that they could sell 600,000 amps at $400, instead of 12,000 amps at $2,000. Economy's of scale kick in, R&D costs are lower, and in general, having a "bad year" at Peavey was annoying, but not catostrophic, where as a high-end amp company has a 20% dip one year, and they might be done right there.

But regardless of price-point, or market share... if Peavey would have spent $25 more per amp to upgrade some of their materials, and $5 more per amp on a more "classic, inviting, timeless, and thought-leader'type aesthetic"... the magazine critics would have been kinder to them, they'd get more celebrity endorcements than just EVH, and when you'd see one in a music store, you would have a different instant reaction to the amps.

But then again... if they did that... maybe more mom's would buy their 13 year old sons some other amp company's $299 amp, and then Peavey'd be too sophisticated looking for mom, but not sophisticated enough for Keith Richards. And they'd be fucked. So...

I dunno.

MAN... I sure can ramble huh?

But what you underestimate is the stability of Peavey equipment, they were like timex watches
nosaj