Do modeling amps get "lost in the mix"

[Chuck H]

OK, so I think we have mostly talked about digital modeling, how do you guys feel about analog modeling (a la Tech 21 Sansamp)? I had a Tech21 Trademark 60 amp that I fixed and flipped, I thought it sounded pretty good, the guy I got it from had been playing big gigs with it. I just fixed a broken Behringer V-tone GMX212 (V-tone is supposedly aping a Sansamp GT2) and I am surprised how much I like the sound. Like I really like it. I am thinking of using it as the house amp at the music hall I volunteer at. The SS Fender I have there now has a terrible, terrible drive channel.

I don't think the Sansamp has a "high gain" type drive channel? At least the one I tried many years ago didn't. But the basic clean and dirty-ish tones of the unit seem pretty good from what I've heard. I've met a couple of bands and studio guys that were very exited about the units when they came out. That's how I ended up playing through one. Pat Simmons from the Doobie Brothers was manning the Guitar Showcase studio some couple of decades ago and insisted I try it. He handed me this cheese grater (extremely high action and heavy strings) SG guitar and plugged me in. It sounded like an amp! Not the best, not bad either. I can see where some professionals would choose to use it rather than lug an actual amp around because it'll certainly get the job done. Just make sure to have some good pedals available for high gain tones.

JM2C

[glebert]

I don't think the Sansamp has a "high gain" type drive channel?

Looking at GT2 review videos (and the V-tone I have) it seems like they plenty of gain in those if you want it.

[olddawg]

There's a guy here on Whidbey that gigs with my amps. A Mesa Subway with a single 10" that I extensively modified and a 30W head with a 4x10 cab. I was at the show one night and I asked the sound guy which amp he liked the best. He said (flatly) "The little one."

I get that with my Bugera V22 with the badge off. I’m next to Mesas all of the time. They usually sound like a bucket of bees. I use an old Rat pedal with the Bugera and that’s it. I get asked if it’s a “boutique” amp all of the time. I don’t tell them that it’s is stock... $249 free shipping from Sweetwater at the time. I do get complaints from some drummers because it’s an open back cab.

[The Dude]

I carry a Sansamp GT2 as a backup "amp". IMO, it sounds better than any digital modeling amp. You can plug it into just about any backline amp and get a decent tone going. And, it fits in a guitar case. I've even used it on some studio tracks running direct. As was said, it's not as good as a real tube amp, but very useable.

[HaroldBrooks]

I play with a guy that runs an at least 15 year old rack processor and rack preamp into the “main amp in” on a JCM2000. He is always talking about his “Marshall Sound”! To me.. it always sounds like the same thing and is only useful for one thing.. “playing a very sloppy, loud version of Crazy Train”, lol. But he’s one of those guys.. he could be playing “Mustang Sally” or “ Browneyed Girl”.. still sounds like bad Zak Wild Crazy Train. When you use EMGs to slam an old VHF Wireless slamming an old processor slamming a separate rack preamp into a power amp input turned down to nothing.. it’s all compression, gates, hash, noise, reverb, and delay trails. The thing totally fails if any dynamics or a truely clean sound is needed. But he loves basking in the glory of his “stack”. Meanwhile I sound much better with a 20 watt 1x12 open back combo with a switchable speaker attenuator and a couple of pedals. I can really make my leads “pop” by switching off the attenuator.

Yes indeed !

Here's my story in brief, had the luxury of being able to play some great amps professionally (out in clubs and small venues) when I was young (Short list : Ampeg, Magnatone, Gretsch, Fender tweeds, Fender Bassman , and finally a real mid 70's Marshall Plexi that I was somehow allowed to dime routinely --- (Yippee !)).

Took a long, long layoff to pursue another career (what a BIG mistake), and when I finally came back to playing, I decided this middle aged geek should get into modeling. I did, and at first it seemed exciting, and I heard the Siren's song... Then the awakening when I saw the rocks up ahead. I was offered a 1949 Supro Supreme by a good friend of mine, and once I plugged in to real tubes again, there was no turning back ! I started to buy many tube amps in many configurations, including a Vintage Marshall JCM 800 and I have been back in guitar amp heaven ever since.

Well I still use some modeling equipment, I only do so with the more eclectic stuff we play that requires a ton of effects and low volumes. There is nothing like a real tube amp, and it's actually laughable to compare just about any modeling rig's or modeling amp's version of a Marshall plexi to the real thing ! It's a Bad joke for the most part, but if your willing to settle for a good deal less, I guess it's OK, sorta.

I realize on a practical note where volume has to be kept really, low, or if you are required to push the gain to thrasher metal levels, then modeling would be a good choice.

But if you intend to play like most the greats did (and some still do), tubes are much better, IMHO. More dynamics in tone, volume, and overall expression while playing, No question as I always go back and forth and have a constant point of reference.

Sorry, this turned out to be a longer post than I first indicated !

[nsubulysses]

I play with a guy that runs an at least 15 year old rack processor and rack preamp into the “main amp in” on a JCM2000. He is always talking about his “Marshall Sound”! To me.. it always sounds like the same thing and is only useful for one thing.. “playing a very sloppy, loud version of Crazy Train”, lol.

I don't understand how anyone could be talking about how great their "Marshall sound" is if they are using any Marshall made after about 1988 or so (were the 800s the last good ones or the silver jubilees? not sure which ones came last but I think that is the end of the road for most people when they talk about their love of the "marshall sound").

I used to have a Marshall JMP-1 rack preamp. That was the closest I ever got to a modeling sound. But it was a tube preamp. I have fond memories of that thing. Wish I could get one again and see if I would still think it sounded good. I sold it in 2000 for about $200. Rack gear was totally OUT of fashion back then and worth nothing; now they seem to be worth $400-800. It paid for 1/5 of my brand new PV 5150 II

[Leo_Gnardo]

I do get complaints from some drummers because it’s an open back cab.

Well, how about you apply a slat of wood across the back? Doesn't have to cover it completely, just most of it. 10-15 minutes work and now drummers are your friends. Hmmm..... if you want that.

[HaroldBrooks]

I don't understand how anyone could be talking about how great their "Marshall sound" is if they are using any Marshall made after about 1988 or so (were the 800s the last good ones or the silver jubilees? not sure which ones came last but I think that is the end of the road for most people when they talk about their love of the "marshall sound").

I used to have a Marshall JMP-1 rack preamp. That was the closest I ever got to a modeling sound. But it was a tube preamp. I have fond memories of that thing. Wish I could get one again and see if I would still think it sounded good. I sold it in 2000 for about $200 now Rack gear was totally OUT of fashion back then and worth nothing; now they seem to be worth $400-800. It paid for 1/5 of my brand new PV 5150 II

I mostly agree with you. Even buying my vintage 1986 JCM 800 was a compromise, and I bought it for the master volume, but the truth is I don't like the way that amp sounds with just preamp distortion !

I barely use it as it would be too loud with everything cranked for today's venues and my half shattered ears. I've played on some "New" smaller Marshall combos, and even the small tube models leave me a bit cold... forget about the new Marshall modeling amps altogether, to me they are an absolute disaster IMHO.

I understand if anyone prefers the newer Marshall tube models, as things have changed gain wise, to say the least. But for me, I would just run a compressor and distortion box up front, and still have a good tube amp at the end of it all.

[Chuck H]

Regarding "the Marshall sound" and higher gain with the stacked preamp/master volume models... two of my favorite high gain Marshall tones were using old JMP 2204 heads. Which I think are basically the same as the 800 master models? Anyway, I had an early 80's RAT pedal. The one everybody wants. I would set the gain about half way and set the level up high enough to overdrive the input. Maybe 6.5 to 7 on the dial. Filter set around five. This with the master set anywhere that didn't clip the power tubes. Once you're clipping the power tubes it's a different story. But for getting a decent tone without volume this was my rig WAAAYY back in the day. If you ARE planning on clipping the power tubes then those same 2204's sounded fantastic with a clean boost at the input, preamp at about 7 and the master cranked. My clean boost was a BOSS GE-7 EQ with the sliders arranged in a hump. A little cut in the top and bottom and a little boost in the midrange. Level set around 6dB boost IIRC. Noisy as hell, but sounded awesome. Using this rig at gigs I actually had TWO different guitar players on two different nights tell me that my tone was "perfect". Friggin PERFECT!!! That's cool.

[J M Fahey]

Couldn´t agree more.

[Justin Thomas]

To this day, if I am playing an amp with a Master Volume, it goes on 10 to start, tone controls at middle, any other gains & volumes at zero. Wind up the gains & volumes to an appropriate [read, SNOWFLAKE-MELTING] volume, nudge the master down, gain up a bit more, but the goal is to keep the Master as wide open as possible. And honestly, I'd rather have a powerful tube amp with the Master on 10, the gain on 3- & a distortotron pedal out front... And my SCH-1 of course.

Either way, though, GAWD, I'd rather have a 20-40W amp on 10 with NO Master Volume...

Justin

[walkman]

To this day, if I am playing an amp with a Master Volume, it goes on 10 to start, tone controls at middle, any other gains & volumes at zero. Wind up the gains & volumes to an appropriate [read, SNOWFLAKE-MELTING] volume, nudge the master down, gain up a bit more, but the goal is to keep the Master as wide open as possible. And honestly, I'd rather have a powerful tube amp with the Master on 10, the gain on 3- & a distortotron pedal out front... And my SCH-1 of course.

Either way, though, GAWD, I'd rather have a 20-40W amp on 10 with NO Master Volume...

Justin

That’s not always going to stop you getting lost in the mix.

I was mixing for a band I knew. The guitar amp being used was an Ampeg V4 with 2x12 Celestion G12-65. This is a loud amp with no master volume.
The amp had been lent to me for awhile at one point and it was awesome, heaven as great overdriven tones when I could turn it up loud enough.


The band were a support band in a big hall like room but a regular and well established venue. In the first half of the set a epiphone les Paul was plugged in and I couldn’t mix out the mud at all As much as I tweaked.

And the band was just drums and guitar!

In the second half of the gig the drummer and the guitarist who are brothers, swapped over and now the other brother was using an early vintage Japanese guitar thin body and single coil pickups, I’m sure you know the sort of guitar.

Wow what a difference! Bright, clear cutting rock, no trouble to get into the spot. I don’t recall them changing EQ on the amp or pedals.

Ok the brothers played differently but this was garage / post grunge punk not something where subtle playing differences are bringing out different textures etc blah Blah or widdly diddly post blues riffing “so am I better than Hendrix” or turgid metal chugging.

Moral of the story is that anyone can make a good tube amp sound bad too....

[Justin Thomas]

But it DOES make sure that any "failure" is MY problem & not a sound guy's peoblem.

I play a Tele with a chorus & a mix of distortotrons that take the mud out for me. A couple CTS square-mag 15s & I'm usually capable of taking off heads with or without a drummer. I can also be clearly heard on bass in a full room with a "measly" 100W.

No, the way to make sure you're heard in a room is to know how to play in a room. Not a basement or bedroom with a practice amp. Then again a 61 Concert is my practice amp.

Justin

[Chuck H]

Then again a 61 Concert is my practice amp.

Really? You didn't strike me as a "harmonic tremolo" guy.?. Or are you not using it? Because otherwise the amp is sort of scary huge for plate voltage and no tethers like HF bleeders and LF trimmimg with coupling cap values. In other words, minus the harmonic trem this amp is wide open. I think that speaks well for a player IMHE. Most of the great players seem to prefer amps that just do whatever they tell them to. Meaning the amps they use are less limited WRT fidelity and the player controls things with their playing technique. The concert would seem to be that kind of amp. And I'm duly impressed!

So when you say that your SF Bassman nails the Rush "Working Man" tone I'm now more intrigued than ever. Probably some of Alex's best work AND tone. And now your street cred is raised. I'm listening

[Justin Thomas]

Way back when, when the Local Shop was still open...
A brown Concert came in for consignment. $2000? Forget it, I'll never afford that. I'm a junker kinda guy. Never played it. 6 months later, a brown Pro (1x15", same amp) shows up. $1500, still never afford it, but I gotta hear what the rage is about. Played it for an hour, just listening to that tremolo... Six months later, another Concert - a bit more beat, 4 Celestions in it, $1000, and I knew I was gonna get fired in a week. Played it for five minutes, emptied my paltry checking account of its $200 & maxed out my credit card, walked out the door. Got fired 8 years ago, still have the amp. Though I'd trade it for a Pro or Super ONLY because I'm short & carrying a 4x10" is kinda hard on the bottom.
I tracked down the original owner's son, in FL, said his dad bought it new in 61 in FL, still lives there, & to find them if we (amp & I) ever get that way.

I LOVE brown/white Fenders. I actually find it less "thick" than my Bassmans (67 & 74) & less bright, too. Within reason. I don't keep the treble & presence on 10. It's also a very clean amp, when cranked - a LOT less distortion than my Bassmans. It's sweet, it's rich, it's balanced, it doesn't crunch very nicely, & it's unforgiving. I like that about amps. The Prosonic & Vibro-King are also very unforgiving. I play a Tele. I like gear that "imposes its will" on me to an extent. And it may not make me a better TECHNICAL player, but I DO think it refines me and makes me a bit more "creative" when playing with others.

As for my Bassmans (an AB165 & a 100 with an AB165 preamp), I don't get the whole "a 100W Fwnder is clean til 10. Necer distorts without pedals!" POPPYCOCK! If it's clean til 10 it's fekking broken. I read on the internet that Alex used a SF Twin Reverb for the entirety of the first album. On 10. So when I got my Bassman 100 (BEFORE I modded the preamp) I whacked it on 10 & the tone controls on 5, Master on 10 (DUH!) & put on my Tele & holy crap does that thing crunch! Is it "perfect" like I downloaded the right tone to my computer cleverly masquerading as a guitar amp? No, but I bet if Alex brought his LP or 335 & plugged in with the same settings he'd find it more than serviceable.

There's also something different in the way a SF Fender distorts, which I can really only chalk up to the PI circuit values. I remember years ago a thread here about "Silverface Pull," and I know exactly what the poster meant by that. A BF is snarly, but I think SF are smooth & squashier. Not as peaky.

My AB165 is one of the gnarliest amps known. I actually have it for sale & the last guy who checked it out plugged it into a Marshall 2x12 with a LP-style guitar & was getting loads of Marshall crunch out of it. Then he says "I've got the Volume on 4."

I cranked up the Dual Showman Reverb on 10, too. It does it too. The neighbor came over & he pulled out HIS Dual Showman & we had a good time outside on the porch.

I have fun with pedals, but I'm trying to make myself a smaller amp that I can dime. Because I really don't like Master Volumes in the modern sense. You still hafta play the things LOUD (as learned from the Prosonic). You can probably tell why I sigged Juan & you.

It all depends on who I'm with & what I'm playing, but I'd still rather NOT use anything that requires programming. And no one EVER tells me I don't cut through a mix.

Justin & Jusrin

PS: maybe your next build should be an AB165 Bassman. Just leave off the 220k resistors on the 6L6s & slap a genuine Fender-labelled Schumacher-made 1972 Twin Reverb OT in it. That's the only mods mine has.