Question regarding building vs buying?

[simspace]

I really want a great sounding boutique amp and I've been looking into buying one. I've looked at ÷13, 65 and Dr Z. amps as well as some others. Awesome amps - not doubt, but MAN are they expensive. And it seems most of them are based on classic amp schematics with some mods specific to the builder.

After studying whatever tech data I could find on these amps, it doesn't seem like the components used are very expensive or out of the ordinary, but pretty standard stuff with a lot of hype around the descriptions.

After pricing out the various components, it looks like I can I build a great sounding boutique amp for under $600.

Am I way off here? If so, would someone please correct me?

Thanks!

[sportster4eva]

Not too far off, but I think you'll find that when you add up the costs of all the parts and shipping you're going to be over the $600 mark, especially if you want a really killer speaker(s). Just to give an example, I made a custom tweed Princeton style amp for someone, and a matching cab, and the parts/materials alone cost over $500, and that was with discounted prices on some of the things I was able to score for a bargain. If you have good woodworking skills, and metal working skills you can save some cash by building your own cab, and using like a blank Hammond chassis and doing your own holes and front panel. The biggest expense is the cabinet, transformers, speaker and chassis. These alone will run you up to the 600 mark, especially if you want an Alnico Gold, or a Tone Tubby in there..

[simspace]

Thanks for your reply. I should have mentioned I have a woodshop and, if I build an amp, I will build a pine or mdf cabinet as well as a chassis which I'll weld together since I have a mig welder.

As for the speaker, I'm thinking about a Celestion Greenback G12M which goes for $110 (though I would love a Celestion Blue Alnico) and I think the transformers and tubes are where I should plan on spending the most.

This is all new to me. I've been researching my options for a few months. If I can build an amp that will come close in tone to a Dr. Z for around $600.00, I'm there.

Any advice or other comments are very welcome!!!

Thanks!

[sportster4eva]

Cool! Doing up your own cab and chassis will be a $$$saver. Don't go too thick on the steel or the socket holes will be a pain. Do you know anyone with a set of Greenlee chassis punches?
You could go wild with the cabinet.. are you thinking tolex or a natural finish.?

What type of amp are you thinking about? One of the designs on the popular forums like 18watt or ax84? This will dictate your transformer/tube choices somewhat.

[black_labb]

something like a step drill worked well for me. make sure to do your research well. its the basics that ma get you.
for example, i just made my amp, and knew the idea behind things but didnt know that the heaters should be wired up as 3.15 and -3.15 as opposed to 6.3 and the second grounded. this means i have plenty of hum as the field around the wire is not cancelled out, which gives alot of hum. also, get a chasis that is plenty big. this means you have room to lay things out well and still have plenty of room to solder. when getting a chasis for my build i only considered the volume, and got something that was deep, but not so wide at the opening, this meant i had the tubes on top, the pots on one side, the transformers out the other side with the eyelet board mounted on the same surface. that meant that i had the wires running across and making it quite a mess when i finished it. technically i was successful in making an amp, but i wouldnt call it boutique quality as there are these issues with the design. i will change the issue with the heater wires, as i think that has alot to do with the level of hum i have going, but there would be more issues im sure.
ill keep the amp as it is, and make a new amp with what ive learnt.

if you plan on making an amp to save money alone, i wouldnt do it, just because it takes that much time to understand what you really need to do. if you are someone who likes making things and enjoys sitting down and reading for a couple of hours on how something works and planning out an amp, then id think about giving it a shot.

[simspace]

Never heard of Greenlee chassis punches until now. I checked them out - pretty pricey.

I haven't thought about the cabinet design yet, except it will be a combo - 11" deep.

In terms of type of amp, I'm thinking Vox AC15.
Or maybe a 1959 tweed (Check out the ÷13 CJ11 Amp)

if you are someone who likes making things and enjoys sitting down and reading for a couple of hours on how something works and planning out an amp, then id think about giving it a shot.

That's me!!!

[Enzo]

You add up all that materials cost, and then also consider the labor involved. Small boutique builders are paying someone real wages to build it. See how many hours it takes you. Not to mention the time and expertise in designing what you want.

You can generally build one for less than an upscale boutique model, but whgen building Fender Deluxe clones or something, it is not going to save money, but it will give you thet satisfaction of having built something nice.

[simspace]

Enzo, thanks for the comments. I did conclude that I can't build an AC15 clone cheaper than what's being sold at Guitar Center.

You used a good description: "upscale boutique model." I guess what I'm after is - what makes an upscale boutique model just that, upscale? The quality of the components? Or is it the cost of handmade labor? Are they designed from scratch? Or, are we paying for the builders mods to classic circuits? Are they really that much better than production models? The more I think about it, maybe the answer is "yes" to all the above.

I ask all these questions to learn, and hopefully not insult anyone in the process. Like I said in my first post - the boutique amps sound amazing. I'm just curious to know - if I put in the time/labor using schematics found on a site like this one, can I create something that comes close in quality of tone to these upscale boutique models?

[Enzo]

Mod/schmod. When Leo Fender built his first amps, the circuits he used were already classics, they were largely published circuits from RCA.

If you and I were sitting in a bar with a pencil and napkin, I am sure I could draw you a schematic of a complete amp - one that would work - without modding something existing. On the other hand, it would look very much like a Bassman or something because if you look at amps, they all are very much alike under the skin. What is the difference between a Tele and a Strat? Details. One is pretty much like another: neck, frets, pickups, solid body, etc. Is there any guitar you might reasonably consider that did not have that same list of stuff in it? Did Paul Reed Smith modify another guitar to make his? Or did he simply take common guitar qualities and optimise them for his taste in guitars?

If you hand make amps, they cost more than mass production. If you pay $10,000 for an engineer to design, specify and lay out an model, that cost must be amortized over the production run of amps. If you make 10,000 amps, it adds $1 each, but if yuo make 100 amps, then it adds $100 each.

If you employ three people to build them, you don't have the economy of scale that you do with 50 people. In a large factory you have a guy bending chassis, a guy laying out pc boards, a guy stuffing them, a guy mounting them in the chassis, someone wiring them, etc. Each guy gets pretty efficient at that part of the process.

How long does it take for Wendys to cook you a hamburger fresh? They have a production line. How long would it take if I sent you to your kitchen to make one? I bet you would not have it on the table in three minutes. That is the labor issue, but parts is another. Maybe your home made burger has better meat, nicer bun, better veggies, etc. So your burger has a higher value for parts. I don't usually expect a $2500 amp to have cheap Taiwan parts in it.

Are they better? That is up to the consumer. SOmeone thinks they are worht the extra dough, or they would all go out of business.

You can make excellect sounding amps on your own, and since it was yours, you can massage the thing to get it exactly the way you want it.

[Steve Conner]

Well, to me, when you buy something boutique, you're paying for the designer's experience and taste. You expect that he has been building amps for years and knows how to make something that looks and sounds great.

It's kind of like cars. A Bentley is an upscale boutique car. You can make a kit car that goes faster than a Bentley for a lot less money, but your celebrity girlfriend may look down her nose at it. The difference in price is down to image.

(Engineer's solution: get another girlfriend who appreciates your car building skills more. )

[simspace]

Thanks for the excellent replies!!!
Good insight into the business/economics of amp building.
I really appreciate your input.

The comment about Leo Fender using classic RCA circuits was interesting. I didn't know that.

Man, all of a sudden I'm hungry.
I think I'll hit Ruth's Chris drive through in my Bentley and get a steak burger.

[MWJB]

"I guess what I'm after is - what makes an upscale boutique model just that, upscale? The quality of the components? Or is it the cost of handmade labor? Are they designed from scratch? Or, are we paying for the builders mods to classic circuits? Are they really that much better than production models? The more I think about it, maybe the answer is "yes" to all the above."

Enzo & Steve have covered this pretty conclusively, but if I expand on Steve's automotive analagy - even if you had the same parts & a manual, would your homebuilt GP bike/car perform, handle & last like a major team's, with years of experience & the accumulated "tricks of the trade"? Just look at all the 5E3 (a "simple" amp on the face of it) build problems on various forums, a bespoke small scale builder doesn't usually have the profit margin to absorb the costs of non-runners & time consuming repairs, so they use their experience to iron out wrinkles in the design. I'm sure that even Fender made good use of their test/repair shop and that a proportion of amps didn't make it off the production line unscathed.

You're paying extra (though not necessarily a commensurate amount given the years of honing) for this knowledge & peace of mind that the amp is as good as it can be. Broken down to an hourly rate you probably pay a plumber/decorater as much, maybe more than a bespoke amp builder. They still have to charge what the market will stand.

The boutique builder will tyically spend more time getting a consistent result from his models, compared to the mass produced amp...this equates to better quality parts & more labour. A well built boutique amp is an amp you could pass on to your grandchildren (with relatively cheap servicing), as are many classic, handwired amps.

A lot of PCB constructed production amps are more labour intensive to perform the same service work and ancilliary parts may be more prone to failure/regular replacement, though they are often terrific value for money for what they are. I have worked on some models and been left wondering how they could simply sound ANY better. If you have ANY amp that you really like the sound of, don't let it go unless you put it back to back with your next potential puchase/build and you're really knocked out. I have a couple of obscenely cheaply constructed amps that I simply could never bring myself to sell, 'cause they sound so good.

At the end of the day a working 50W (for instance) is 50W and that will be good enough for most folks, whether the additional benefits of ease of servicability, longevity, consistent/improved tone is worth spending twice as much, is entirely the buyer's call. For a dozen years on the road it may never be an issue.

Many "boutique" versions of classic amps are actually cheaper than the originals were in their day...if you believe the 'inflation calculators'. It's more the case that modern production methods/locations have made amps very cheap, rather than old style amps expensive.

Personally, I think the phrase "boutique" is overused...some amps are just small scale production, hand built amps. No names, no pack drill - but I've seen high price, so called boutique amps, that are made with the same quality components as mass produced amps and that have required servicing/essential repair within months of purchase! Please don't try to second guess anyone I might be referring to - I don't want to take food off ANYONE'S table, reputations are hard won & easily lost in this game. Just do your homework when considering a purchase.

How do you end up with a million from building boutique amps? Start with 2 million! :-)

[Paul P]

I really want a great sounding boutique amp and I've been looking into buying one...

I started my journey into amp building with the idea that it would be cheaper
to build than to buy. I even figured that for the price of a high end amp I
could make one and buy test equipment to debug, tweak and maintain it (I'm
pretty sure the test equipment will be necessary since I don't have the
expertise of prior builds to put into the amp up front).

I don't think I'll succeed in this but it'll be mainly from spending more than
I expected on the test equipment. The total price of parts is quite a bit
more than I thought as well. Then there's rolls of hook-up wire, a good
soldering station, etc, etc.

The big advantage I see in building over buying is being able to tweak the amp
into sounding exactly like you want once it's built. Going through the process
of planning and building an amp you get to really know how it works and where
the parts are. (I'm speaking here about those of us that are new to amp
building). I think it would be harder to dig into an already built amp and
try and figure things out.

Another advantage to building is the possibility of using the very best parts
available.

But - learning how tube amps work, researching parts and suppliers, ordering
the parts, drawing schematic and layout diagrams, not to mention actually
building the amp, takes an enormous amount of time. I've spent months and
months to get to the point where I'm now confident that I have most of the
different things worked out, though I still have to finalize my drawings.
And I'm still far from sure that I won't end up with a huge unstable mess.

It's a great passtime though. The members in this forum have been of
incalculable help to me. I think it's safe to say that if this forum (and
Ampage before it) didn't exist I would not be in the process of building an
amp right now. I've been thinking I should call my amp the Rampage or
maybe the MEFisto in honour of all the great help I've received here.

So in summary building an amp is a great idea. Just don't do it to save
money.

Paul P

[sportster4eva]

Excellent summary Paul!! That sums it up perfectly.

[simspace]

This thread definitely answered my questions and has really put things into perspective for me.

Great reply Paul - Thanks!
I clearly need to look more into the test equipment side of things.
Also, for what it's worth, I think the name "Rampage" is a great idea!!!