All Dumbled up

[keithshapiro]

Ok, I've been playing through a Pod XT for the last year, and more recently through Native Instruments Guitar Rig. Now hold on..... I realize I've been hearing the fake thing for way too long.

I've also been a Larry Carlton Fan forever and have been really loving the sound on the "Last Night" record for years.

A few months back I bought a B-52 AT 212 at my local Guitar Center and I liked it on the floor and in my room. As a rock amp it's pretty fun and has tone.

So here's the question - I've since fallen in love with that Dumble sound that Larry Carlton has and now I'm obsessed with getting it.

I've also been shopping around for an ES-335 because as I get older I'm leaning more towards the jazz idiom.

So, as a guitar player looking for the Dumble sound that I like and having no real research experience with amps of this type, can someone suggest any direction I should go in regards to listening, or amp style or manufacturer etc. that would be helpful in learning about amps and amp characteristics.

I hope this question isn't too lame or to greenpea, and any suggestions would be great.

I do realize that just hunting down a Dumble and buying one is one solution but I also understand that there are amps that are clones but have no experience with any of them.

Here is an mp3 of the sound I'm totally blown away by. www.keithshapiro.com/audio/lcdumble.mp3

I hope it's ok to post a file url here

Thanks
Keith

[Satamax]

Keith, i think a moded fender early SF bassman or bandmaster could get you there pretty easily. The upper mids are more open and higher trebles may be more cut off/rounded. Add a rectifier for compression. Well, jmho!

[keithshapiro]

I really appreciate your input, I'm trying to learn what I can and that particular sound is just so great to listen to. I had someone tell me that 80 percent of the tone (if you listened to that mp3) was his physical playing. I've listened to Larry Carlton on many recordings with all kinds of different setups and none sound like the dumble. So where could I learn more about what you said?

Thanks again
Keith

[Satamax]

Hi Keith.

Well, check the schemos especialy the fender mods, and compare to fender ab763 schematics.

http://www.schematicheaven.com/dumble.htm

http://www.schematicheaven.com/fender.htm

Myself, i would start with a dead blackface bandmaster. Whange the output trany for a bassman one, and the power trany for one with a rectifier tap. I think for your sound, i'd only use the jazz circuit.

HTH.

Max.

[MattT]

Three pedals that are supposed to be great for getting Dumble-style tones are the Hermida Zendrive (Robben Ford uses one with a Twin sometimes), the Jetter Gain Stage Red, and the Custom Tones Ethos pedal.

If you want to build an amp for those tones you might try the Amp Garage forum. I built one using a Bandmaster Reverb chassis but it doesn't really sound very good...I'll probably be getting one of those pedals soon.

[loudthud]

The Amp Garage is a good place to start. Many people post gut shots of dumble inspired amps built on different chassis. Nice Schematic section. One of the companies you'll run into there is Brownnote. They make one of the more popular kits. If you go to their website, there are some sound clips to give you an idea of what the amps sound like.

[gwillia8]

I have built the circuits on Schematic Heaven. The preamp overdrive doesn't sound right on any of them. It doesnt seem to have the midrange smoothness and touch sensitivity and gradual onset of distortion that you hear on Larry Carlton recordings like the one posted or Robben Ford. I am wondering if the OT is the problem. I believe the zendrive has captured the tone, also Fuchs amps.
Also Two Rock amps get that unmistakeable tone. If I had access to any of the above I would reverse engineer it.

[Rick Erickson]

Most any real blackface Fender amp and an Ibanez TS808 Tube Screamer (or two) should get you there, or close to it. I worked on a Two Rock amp for a customer and was impressed with the way the amp would transition from the clean channel to the distortion channel without altering the tone significantly, once the internal trim tone pots are adjusted properly. The distortion was very smooth. I realized though that I already get that with my pedal setup and my Deluxe Reverb. Saved me a lot of tech time that could be applied to playing my guitar.

RE
www.myspace.com/rick_erickson

[DoctorTone]

More playing and less gear fussing - right idea

I agree totally about the concept of more playing time. Think of the musician in a third world country who only has a cheap Chinese plywood guitar plugged into an old boom box for an amp, yet still coaxes feeling and expression out of it. Keep It Simple, etc. Hermida pedals are awesome. I saw Robben Ford do a whole show with nothing but his guitar into a volume pedal, a wah, a Hermida Zendrive, not even any amp footswitches, into some kind of splitter and into a couple of rented Fender amps, a Twin and a Deluxe I think, and it was great - cleans, overdrives, etc, all sounded fantastic. Not quite the same as a Dumble, of course not, but you would still recognize his tone anywhere. It is largely in the hands. There are those of us who play music, and there are those of us who just like to play with gear toys. I say put together a simple, reliable amp rig and focus on the music.

[Steve A.]

IMO I think that the Damage Control Liquid Blues pedal does a great job of coaxing Dumblesque tones from your basic tube amp. This pedal uses two 12AX7's and I've replaced V1 (the tube on the right looking at the top of the pedal) with a NOS Philips 12AX7WA and V2 with a GE 5 star 5751 from the 50's.

What I think makes this pedal different from your typical tube driven pedal is the Compression control along with the Clarity control which mixes in some of the un-compressed signal. (Yes, there are a lot of distortion pedals with compression, but the compression on this one sounds a lot like the compression you get from an overdriven tube amp.)

The Liquid Blues pedal is huge with a ginormous power supply, so if space and power is an issue the Barber Small Fry does a pretty good job of getting Dumble tones- there are even internal trim pots, just like in an ODS! One of the trim pots is for "note shape" so you could theoretically dial in a sound not unlike Larry Carlton's ODS...

I'm not as pleased with the Small Fry as I am with the Liquid Blues- sometimes it sounds really good and sometimes it doesn't. Maybe I'm just not setting all of those internal trimmers correctly...

Steve Ahola

P.S. The main reason for the tube swap in the Liquid Blues is that there is no level adjustment for the boost switch, and I found the boost to be a bit excessive. I had first replaced the tube on the right next to the boost switch with the 5751, but that tube does not effect the gain of the boost. The tube on the right seems to effect the gain of the unboosted mode. Would sure be nice to see a schematic of this thing just to get a better idea of what is going on inside...

[MattT]

I have an old Barber Burn Unit which is basically a Small Fry (but with less trimmers) and mine also 'sometimes sounds really good...other times not so much'. Seems I like it when I dial in the amp just for the Burn Unit but if I dial in the amp to sound good clean then I don't like it as much.

There's also the Menatone Howie pedal...never tried it but it's obv a Dumble styled pedal.

[GibsonLover]

Dumble build

As the say ...many have tried. If you want to persue that sound, I'd recommend modding one of the loud fenders with big iron that has already been "victimized" (I hate to advise modding a virgin old Fender). If you have the time and money, check out TUT6 available from London Power. There is a whole chapter regarding Dumble. It covers the topology of the amp and some of the 'BS' surrounding old Howard. Frankly, I think much of the Dumble Desire is driven my myth around the man. A man with celebrity customers that can pay thru their noses without batting an eye at the price. Dumble amps (I think most of them) use cascaded stages like every other high gain amp and
are finely tuned, like every other high gain amp. As an experimenter, it's fun to try your hand at it. Remember, like Marshall and everyone else, there are flaws and shortcomings with the Dumble design that TUT6 also touches on. With a little reading, studying, and time on the bench, you can build a better Dumble and save $everal thou$and dollars....And get what YOU want.

[telemoxy]

Ok, I've been playing through a Pod XT for the last year, ...

So, as a guitar player looking for the Dumble sound that I like and having no real research experience with amps of this type, can someone suggest any direction I should go in regards to listening, or amp style or manufacturer etc. that would be helpful in learning about amps and amp characteristics.

Keith

You could start with your PODxt by looking up in the manual and listening to Boutique #1 and #2 and Line 6 Crunch and Layer. Which of these do you like the best? Which cabinets do you like with it?

Then see how close the other amp models come to this sound and that will tell you what you like and don't like. Then go out to stores and if you can clubs and listen to what some of the amps you prefer sound like. It beats reading about other peoples listening fun.