Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Gibson GA-6 & Rickenbacker M-11 Paraphase bias resistor incorrect?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Gibson GA-6 & Rickenbacker M-11 Paraphase bias resistor incorrect?

    I am planning to build a 2x 6V6, paraphase PI amp. And was using as guide, for initial schematic and components values, the Gibson GA-6 (interim model, i.e., 12AY7 preamp & 6SL7 PI) and the Rickenbacker M-11 with 6SC7 preamp & PI.

    The theory of the paraphase PI operation is pretty simple:

    The signal to be amplified, goes through a tube driver to the push-pull output tube "1".
    From this same output, a signal is derived, and goes to a resistive divider (like a fix potentiometer), reducing this signal voltage. This has to be done in such way, that when this signal is amplified by the other tube driver, it produces the same output of the first tube driver (and opposite phase), before it is fed to the push-pull output tube "2", in order to have a balanced push-pull operation.

    So, the first requirement here, is that this voltage reduction, is equals to the inverse of the tube driver gain, so the second tube driver produces the same output of the first one.
    In other words, Gain = (Rg + R_didv) /Rdiv… So far, so good.


    Also, in this PI design, if the first tube driver goes into cut-off, then the second driver also stops, because it is fed from the first tube. For this reason, it is a good design practice to bias these as linear as possible and with maximum headroom (Class "A" operation).

    However, both of these designs appear to be violating these two requirements, and thus generating (from forums limited information) very unpleasant distortion.

    THE QUESTION IS: does anybody there with hands-on experience on any of those amps, to elaborate further on my observations?
    Thanks!

  • #2
    There is no active link in your above post.

    What is the schematic?

    BTW, all PI circuits run in class A but not always center-biased.
    Last edited by Helmholtz; 08-26-2023, 02:45 PM.
    - Own Opinions Only -

    Comment


    • #3
      The signal required to drive a 6V6 can easily be created by any triode so the power tube will clip long before the PI tube. Take any reports of unpleasant distortion with a grain of salt. A simple adjustment of the attenuation between the two tubes in the parahase PI will produce plenty of even order THD. Build it and adjust to suit.
      WARNING! Musical Instrument amplifiers contain lethal voltages and can retain them even when unplugged. Refer service to qualified personnel.
      REMEMBER: Everybody knows that smokin' ain't allowed in school !

      Comment


      • #4
        This is what I came-up with:


        Gibson GA-6 (Interim Model w/ 12AY7 Preamp)






        As you can see, the 470 ohms bias resistor (yellow trace) from the schematic, bias the PI too "hot". I am not sure that doing this is going to cause the output tubes to clip first... The 1200 ohms bias resistor (short red trace) seems more appropriated.

        ======================================================== ========================================================

        Here you have the same for the Rickenbacker M-11:








        In this case, the 3000 ohms bias resistor (orange trace) from the schematic, bias the PI too "cold".

        Of course, I can always build it and adjust the values, but I would like this to be directionally correct instead of a lot of trial-and-error.
        Last edited by K Teacher; 08-26-2023, 10:44 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by K Teacher View Post
          This is what I came-up with:..........
          No schematic showing.

          Seems none of your attachments did upload to the forum server.

          It might help to play with this calculator: https://www.ampbooks.com/mobile/ampl...ors/paraphase/
          Last edited by Helmholtz; 08-26-2023, 03:17 PM.
          - Own Opinions Only -

          Comment


          • #6
            Images:
            Attached Files

            Comment


            • #7
              What is your goal? The existing circuits are manufacturers examples that work in practice. There are plenty of things in guitar amps that violate what theory says should be 'proper'.
              If your concern is internet speculation about unpleasant distortion, first you should verify whether those rumours are true. Very often it is things that are too perfect or symmetrical that sound unpleasant.
              As Loudthud alluded to, you can add a tweak pot to vary the symmetry of the PI and see how it sounds to you. It's quite rare but some amps did come with such trimmers for PI adjustment.
              Originally posted by Enzo
              I have a sign in my shop that says, "Never think up reasons not to check something."


              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks for the replies...

                The goal is to find someone that has those or worked on them, and get some perspective if they are really bad or if these examples I picked were just poorly designed... If the paraphase concept is not good for guitar amps, I can spend the same time and parts building something else instead...

                Comment


                • #9
                  I like theory but the final proof is always in the experiment.
                  1) Does your modified circuit look better on the scope regarding balance and headroom?
                  2) Does it sound better than the original circuit?

                  Personally I prefer a LTPI.
                  Last edited by Helmholtz; 08-26-2023, 10:42 PM.
                  - Own Opinions Only -

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Helmotz,
                    I can't answer those; don't have a scope, don't have the original to compare...

                    Comment

                    Working...
                    X