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Converting EL84 output stage to 6AQ5

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  • Converting EL84 output stage to 6AQ5

    Now that I've come to terms with the fact that my amp will never leave my bench, I've been wanting to experiment with changing the output section. I've been really unhappy with my EL84 set up in this amp. First, it's just plays really loud, and the high frequency component has been really difficult to tame.
    However, after the results from subminiature amp project over the last year, I've become much more encouraged. In fact, I decided to tear my EL84 amp down to the chassis, and transformers and rebuild it using the same approach I took with the submini build.

    Before:
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    After:
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    Haha! She was so pretty before, but it is so much quieter and stable in it's current ugly state. But I digress...


    My first idea, was to install a pair of 5902 output tubes in addition to the EL84s low output option. My PT already had a second HT winding, and was gonna run them off that as a designated power supply. The challenges with that idea were how/where to mount the additional tubes, and they would require an additional output transformer. In addition to those, I was worried that I would loose some of the effects of excursion and power supply dynamics you get from overdriving a push pull amp by running the output tubes from a separate supply. But since I was unhappy with the original output section anyways, decided to look into what I needed to do to replace them with 6AQ5s

    (For those who aren't familiar with 6AQ5s, they are 7-pin beam tetrode designed to operate as a 6V6 equivalent with a plate and screen voltage of 250V. They were more common to find in early gibson/supro/valco type amps)

    The good thing was that the output transformer specs are shared closely between 6AQ5s and EL84s
    , so I could use the existing one. Obviously I would need to use a socket adapter or replace the 9-pin sockets with a pair of 7-pin.
    The other challenge was that even though the output power was comparable, all the data sheets I could find specified that the max screen voltage and plate voltage for a 6AQ5​ is 250V. My existing PT was spec'd to provide a B+ of 330V under an idle load. In reality, Heyboer ended up sending me a transformer that was about 4% off on both my HV secondary windings, so the B+ is between 317V-320V. Still, that's enough of a difference, where I'd seen modern amp companies design amps that cause output tube and output stage failures because of overvoltage conditions, particularly on the screens.
    This gave me the opportunity to test an Idea I came up with for switching a while back. Rather than trying to drop the entire B+ by using any number of common techniques, I had some STP9NK90Z Mosfets with an RDS(on) resistance of <1Ω at @ 250mA which is the most my HT secondary is set to pull before the fuse action, so I decided to essentially lift the 6AQ5 cathode voltages to provide safe B+ levels. Because the Max voltages listed on Tube data sheets is in reference to the cathode, I could use a 32V zener diode to set the Mosfet Drain voltage to +32V, and then use the drain to be the low side of the 400Ω cathode bias resistors to bring the screen/cathode voltage to the safe 250V level. It's a supper simple design, works fantastic. I had to do some series/parallel connections to get the values I was looking for. But that's only because I'm impatient and wanted to do this quickly.


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    Last edited by SoulFetish; 03-03-2024, 08:39 PM.
    If I have a 50% chance of guessing the right answer, I guess wrong 80% of the time.

  • #2
    I like the idea and I like 6AQ5s.
    But why not just use the EL84s with a plate-to-cathode voltage of 250V?
    - Own Opinions Only -

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Helmholtz View Post
      I like the idea and I like 6AQ5s.
      But why not just use the EL84s with a plate-to-cathode voltage of 250V?
      hmm, I didn't think of that?
      But I did consider that the my choice of plate load may have contributed to my dissatisfaction with the results
      If I have a 50% chance of guessing the right answer, I guess wrong 80% of the time.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by SoulFetish View Post
        But I did consider that the my choice of plate load may have contributed to my dissatisfaction with the results
        So what plate load did you use?
        Did you try different plate loads?
        Optimum plate load varies with plate and screen voltage.
        Fixed or cathode bias?
        Is the amp running in class A or AB?
        Global NFB?
        What's wrong with the sound?
        Did you try a "cut control" or even better a conjunctive filter across the OT primary?
        Or a different speaker?

        Forget my questions if you're happy with the 6AQ5s.
        Last edited by Helmholtz; 03-04-2024, 12:04 AM.
        - Own Opinions Only -

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        • #5
          FWIW one of the better "overdriven power tubes" affects I've heard in an amp was indeed a Gibson using 6aq5's at about 300Vp. Sorry I don't have more details on this one (screen voltage, primary impedance, etc.). It was an amp that I owned briefly because a friend needed cash and I just fixed it up and flipped it fast. The overall tone was partly relative to the preamp in those amps but I could clearly hear the affect as the power tubes started to clip. I actually liked that amp in a sort of "Oh, look at the unique thing this amp does" sort of way. I can imagine that 6aq5's in a push pull circuit could be a great choice for a lower wattage amp.
          "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

          "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

          "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
          You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Helmholtz View Post
            Optimum plate load varies with plate and screen voltage.

            Absolutely correct


            So what plate load did you use?
            10k2 p-p

            Did you try different plate loads?
            Not really. once upon a time, I really liked the sound a lot. Interestingly, I was using a different Power Transformer in that version that was an OEM I pulled from my V30 amp.
            It was originally designed for a 4 x EL84 amp, but I was getting the B+ and screen voltage I had designed the amp for (Around +332V for the plates, and screens supply around +320V). You might be wondering "Why then did I have another transformer made for the amp?"
            That's a long story, but I wanted a separate secondary for a +/- supply because I wanted a direct coupled output stage at the time.

            Fixed or cathode bias?
            Technically, a fixed bias, as it was a DC coupled stage. However, about half the bias voltage was developed across a cathode resistor.

            Is the amp running in class A or AB?
            AB

            Global NFB?
            Yes, but I experimented with both


            What's wrong with the sound?
            The best I could describe it was brittle and there was a HF component that was unpleasant.

            Did you try a "cut control" or even better a conjunctive filter across the OT primary?
            I had a presence control, as well as experimented with a number of measures in order to address the HF gain in both GFB and non-GFB configurations.
            I absolutely used a conjunctive filter across the primary. I thought it was helpful, and I'm still using it.


            Or a different speaker?
            yup. Actually, back in the beginning, I was using an old Jensen P15L 15" speaker with a huge alnico magnet that was in great shape.
            I actually sold that for good money.

            Forget my questions if you're happy with the 6AQ5s.
            Now you tell me.

            edit: I kind of really do like the 6AQ5s, by the way. But I've been working on this thing off and on for years and can't figure out what I did wrong when I rebuilt it. If I'm honest, I really like EL84s when I play them in a lot of other amps. I just had to realize that even though I put a lot of thought and care into my amp; it just sounded like shit.
            Honestly, it feels so good to say it.
            F*ck. That. Amp.
            Now I'm free
            Last edited by SoulFetish; 03-04-2024, 02:13 AM.
            If I have a 50% chance of guessing the right answer, I guess wrong 80% of the time.

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            • #7
              From limited 6aq5 usage, I would say you can't really abuse the specs like a 6v6. I wouldn't go much over 300v plate. I did build a 4 tube output version and was one of my favorite sounding amps.

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              • #8
                The RCA data sheet for the 6AQ5A lists Maximum Plate and Screen Voltages at 275V (class A amp), but the plate curves for pentode and triode operation both go out to 500V. Screen Voltage for the pentode curves is 250V. As a Vertical Deflection Amplifier, the peak Plate Voltage can be 1100V.

                If you can limit screen Voltage with a Voltage regulator, a higher plate Voltage in the 350V range can probably be used.
                WARNING! Musical Instrument amplifiers contain lethal voltages and can retain them even when unplugged. Refer service to qualified personnel.
                REMEMBER: Everybody knows that smokin' ain't allowed in school !

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