I don't know didly...teach me please.

[Test Tube Newb]

Hey everybody, name's Sean but you can call me Kaz. I've been playing guitar for about two years and over those two years I've become extensively knowledgeable about guitars in general (brands...construction etc) but i don't know the next thing about amps. I've a 15W peavy and basically all i know are some brand names, tubes rule (don't know why just know they do) and that I want to build a tube amp. I've been looking around at speakers and i've settled on 2 Eminence "Red, White and Blues" speakers they are rated at 120W, 8ohm each. I was originally gonna dismantle a head and make a combo but i wanna build one of my own. I was looking at a 100W head but after noticing that that could power a full stack i might settle with 60W for a 2X12 combo. Given that where do I start? Can anyone help me w/ schematics (dad's an electrician so reading thems not a problem)? I need to know what materials i need for a 60W 2X12 all tube combo w/ 2 channels and reverb. Thank all for your time and help.

[bob p]

Assuming that you'd like to help yourself, everything that you could possibly want to know has already been typed. Instead of having someone here retype everything, you should start off by reading the AX84 P1 document and ask questions if you don't understand something.

[Test Tube Newb]

ok, so the ax84 site is nice and all but can you help explain a little like for exapmle "Yeah so 60W would be yur best bet or dont worry about going 100W....such and such book will give you a good start as far as what a tube amp does and this other one will walk you through every step of the way with schematics for the exact type of wiring and spekers that you want in your amp"

[stokes]

I would suggest you start simple,like a Tweed Champ.Go to the Fender Amp Field Guide,you will find the schematic as well as a layout diagram.The Champ is pretty much the basis behind all tube amps.You will see this preamp in any tube amp,no matter how much more complicated an amp may be,that basic preamp will be in there.Go to www.pacificrecone.com/JackDarrBook.html that is a link to Jack Darrs Guitar amp book,excellent source for basic tube amp info.Starting with a 60watt amp is out of your league right now,start with the Champ and go on to a Tweed Deluxe and work your way up to the bigger amps.The Tweed Champ is the simplest since it has no tone circuit,which a lot of people feel make it the best sounding of the Champs.

[Test Tube Newb]

The tweed champ looks like a great place to start indeed. I am however looking for a serious amp for my new guitar that I'm building. Given that my father is an electrician, how dificult would a 2X12 60W be to make if i were to read up on the tweed champ and tweed deluxe and so on and even wire some of their circuts and then attempt my amp with a good set of schematics and a new, stronger understanding of tube amp wiring etc? Reading schematics should be no problem so i think studying that hanbook would be the way to go if I need the amp of the size im looking for. y/n? thanks

[stokes]

There is a lot more to building amps than looking at a schematic and wiring it up.If it were that easy,everybody could build their own and nobody would manufacture them.There are a lot of troubleshooting techniques to be learned,it is not likely that the first amp you build is going to perform right the first time you fire it up.There are lead dress issues,component placement,safety issues-tube amps carry enough volts to kill-even when they are unplugged.It really aint as simple as looking at a schematic and assembling it like a model airplane
"how dificult would a 2X12 60W be to make if i were to read up on the tweed champ and tweed deluxe and so on and even wire some of their circuts and then attempt my amp with a good set of schematics and a new, stronger understanding of tube amp wiring etc?"If you were to start wiring a Tweed deluxe tomorrow,I can almost guarantee you will be posting questions here months from now trying to troubleshoot the amp.Learn the basics,that is the best advice I can give you,start small.It sounds like that is not what you want to hear right now,but think about it,if it were that easy Marshall would be out of business.You said yourself"tubes rule,but I dont know why".You own a 15 watt Peavy,which I suspect is not even a tube amp,you have at best 2 years experience even using an amp.Even the approach you are taking,you say you have settled on "2 Eminence Red White and Blue speakers"is ass backwards.What are you basing your speaker selection on?Look, you asked for advice,Bob gave you the short answer,I gave you a little more insight as to some of the things you should consider,there are a lot of other people here who are very willing to help you out,but starting out going for a "serious amp" without starting simple and learning the basics is asking for trouble,and to tell you otherwise would be bad advice.Based on what experience you have and your limited knowledge of tube amps you should start with a Champ or a Deluxe at most and see what it is really about.

[Test Tube Newb]

ok so i didnt sign up to this forum to be called an idiot. i know theres a good possibility that my first amp may suck completely but im not stupid. I'm not gonna go "ooh pretty wires!!!" and stick my hand in. i know more than nothing about amps and quite a bit about wiring. i still have a peavy 15W because i never decided to buy a new amp such as the fender hotrod deluxe which i was eyeing up untill i decided to take a project on myself. Trust me guys i know this isnt easy to do but i do know it can be done. I building my first guitar right now and the reason that i'll be able to walk into a guitar shop, hold it up and ask the sales rep "how much do you think this cost?" they'll say around 1,500 is because i read up building guitars extensively....sure i coulda bought a "build a strat" kit with all the shaping done and the neck pre-done but i decided to take on a challenge. now i came to the forum for advice on a 60W 2X12. I dont mind if you suggest easier projects but please dont tell me that im lookin outta my league and that im gonna kill my self. I've been wiring all my life (10,000 volt jacob's ladders included). So....do any of you know good how to books on 60W 2X12 amps?

[bob p]

Starting with a simple amp like a Tweed Champ is a good idea. I recommended the AX84 because it is extensively documented and its documentation walks through every aspect of how a simple amp functions, and explains everything in detail. Its really worth your time to read it. If you read it, you'll be miles ahead of everyone else who hasn't read it.

I understand the desire for a quick and dirty answer, but @stokes is right -- if you jump into a high powered amp and try to "cookbook" your way through it, if you're lucky enough to finish the assembly then you'll have no idea what to do if something goes wrong. Then your only recourse will be to come back here and ask what anyone who has read the P1 document would consider to be "stupid questions."

There are a great number of people here who know a lot and are willing to help you. To make the most of your time and theirs, take some time to read basic information about how tube amps work. That will make it easier for you to understand the answers that you get when you ask questions, and it will allow everyone to most effectively use their time helping you. Unfortunately, you need to resist the temptation to ask someone to spoon-feed evertying that you need to know. You just can't learn a complex subject that way.

I would echo @stokes point that building an amp is not as simple as just assembling parts, and its not so simple that every electrician would be up to the task. Unfortunately, there are LOTS of guitarists who think that ampbuilding is nothing more than parts connecting, as if you were painting a picture using a paint by numbers set. Its just not that easy. There's both art and science involved, and to build a complex amp, it really pays to get experience by building simpler circuits first.

[Test Tube Newb]

Thank you Bob P. I appreciate your post. Your certainly right about the art aspect. I'm kinda known to jump into projects fairly confidently because my dad and I love to tinker. He's not only an electrician (or former electrician i should say) but he's aslo a jet engine technician, a professional sign maker and woodworke...basically your typical handy man. I never planned on touching a single wire or buying a single thing w/o looking at several small projects and books and researching different amps and studying companies designs and the science of what not. Whenever i do a project i like to be educated enough to be able to explain the thing extensively and be capable of answering questions on a topic. I do want to build a small practice amp now because you have convinced me of such (Plus my peavy sucks at this point ha ha). I've learned my whole life through tinkering with anything from cameras (my forte) to skatebord ramps to building and rewiring guitars. My life is trial and error ha ha. But anyway thank you for your kinder post I appreciate it and you'll be hearing from me again with questions. If you have any photography or luthier related questions feel free to ask me.

[dai h.]

hi, there are a bunch of links here from the old ampage site which includes links to old textbooks and a lot more. Now is one of the best times ever to start learning something since there is so much free information on the 'net right at your fingertips. You need only to expend the effort to look really.

http://www.firebottle.com/fireforum/...sub=garm&mode=

[stokes]

I wasnt calling you an idiot.You yourself said you dont know diddly.You asked for advice about building an amp.You said you knew nothing about tube amps,didnt realize you've been wiring all your life.So you've been playing for 2 years and already you are building $1,500 custom axes?I apologize,didnt realize you were so advanced.Go to Schematic Heaven.com,they got a lot of 60watt amp schems there.I would suggest you go for the Mesa MKIV,switchable between 60 and 100 watts,for those times you need a really serious amp.Forget that old Jack Darr book,probably beneath your skill level,it was all we had when we were your age,but nowadays you got all you need on the 'net.Again I apologize for offering such advice as learning the basics.

[Rob Mercure]

TTN,

Well the "angels have trod" so I guess I'll "step in <grin>." Bob and Stokes have given you pretty straight up advice so all I'll add is a little "spice" to the discussion. First off get download a copy of a tome such as "Amplifiers" by H. Lewis York, or a copy of one of the last RCA Receiving Tube Manuals, or the ARRL Handbook, or any other of the already suggested publications and familiarize yourself with 1) the basic parts/systems of a tube amplifiers, and 2) the basic construction information - the ARRL Handbook is probably best for this. Then you might try finding an old tube PA at a thrift store - you'd be suprised how cheaply you can probably pick up a 30-100W amplifier which will greatly lower the cost of your project and take care of most of your chassis layout issues. Not your dream amp? Well, that's not what what I'm suggesting, although it could be! Instead if you sucessfully convert a CHB30 Bogen - for example - to a guitar amp you like then you'll have captured much of the skill you'll need for your dream amp (and some of us have sorta become "specialists" at providing Bogen conversion advise, heh, heh). After all, how many mechanics do you know who've crafted their perfect show car without having to fix a bunch of S10s and Taurus's?
Once you've got down the basics there really isn't a lot different, constructionwise, between a 60W amp using 6550s, for instance, and a 100W amp using the same bottles - just a bit more control grid signal, a bit more bias, and a couple of beefier trannies.
But what I think Stokes and Bob are trying to tell you (not that you two would let me get away with "putting words in your mouths" <grin>), as best I can tell, is that electronics requires at least some "thought" theory (was that an oxymoron?) as opposed to "feel theory." Yeah, you can shape a great guitar neck and you may be someone who can easily feel a 1/10000" bit of "proud" wood and take it down with a sharp Buck knife - but can you head out into the woods with a chainsaw during the winter and "read" a sugar maple tree to see where the straight grain is, the burl, the fiddleback, and the birds eye (if any)? (can you tell I used to be a logger? <grin>).
Go for it! Learn by doing! But you'll enjoy your work more if you don't have to stop so often to move a component you've inappropriately placed or rivet/solder a patch over a badly punched tube socket, or wonder why you've got a hum in your speaker with the output tubes out and the PT powered up! (ask me how I know about these things <embarassed grin>).

A "whiff" from another elder flatulator.

Rpb

[Steve Conner]

Learn by doing is right. The internet is great, sure, but it can't teach you everything, and to build an amp you need to know a million little things.

Experienced builders haven't the time to even begin teaching you these things for free. The really good guys can't even see what those things are any more. They just crank out electronic circuitry that works, paying about as much conscious attention to the basics as you pay to foot placement when you walk down the street. They learnt how to do it a long time before the Internet existed, too.

So your questions come across as something like "Please give me a list of foot placement coordinates that will enable me to walk down the main street on a Saturday evening. You better not make me tread in dog dirt or bump into a vagrant." You can imagine how fun and productive that is to answer. We would really rather you learnt to walk the same way as everyone else, by falling over and bumping into things a lot.

I help to run another forum for hobby electronics, and we try our hardest to make new members read this document before posting:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

It's aimed at computer hackers, but I think the long-time amp hackers on this forum deserve a similar level of respect. Sorry if this sounds mean, but that's just the way the Internet is.

[stokes]

Well put,Steve.Nobody here intends to be "mean" but sometimes things typed out dont really come across as intended,we often misinterpret things we read,but it all works out in the end,we hope.We are all here to learn and to help out when we can,and share knowledge as well as opinions.

[mooreamps]

Steve is not correct in posting that none of the senior builders don't want to help. I think that is too presumous. I think there is just nothing "cooler" than rolling your own tube amp. Sure, it takes some hard work and effort to cobble something up, but if it is something that you intend to use, I think it's time very well spent.

I'm going to give you a like to look at. http://www.angela.com.

This is the site of one of my company vendors. Go here, then look for their
"How To do Section", then look for their "Angela Instruments Super Single-Ended 6V6 Guitar Amplifier Project".

This is a great first project to build. They give instructions on this page of how to build it, and a parts list. Also, when this is done, you will have an amp with enough power to be very gigable.

good luck,
-g