DRRI speaker (spkr W/ db general Qs).

[Sea Chief]

Chaps-

I need a bright speaker for my DRRI (head: 2/3rds orig fender parts).. as the sound I have, with my speaker, is dark and flat: a cheap get-me-going Peavey (50w 8Ohm). I use the Vibrato channel even with a strat at treb 8/ bass 3 for a pretty tonally-even sound, nothing ott bright at all.

So assuming the speaker is the weak-link, and Ive reason to think it is as I hooked amp up with a jensen P12Q & altho not mounted (on table next-to, firing up) I was shocked at how overtly-bright and utterly different it sounded- Im not wanting this sort of brightness at all!- at least it gave me food for thought. The few 12" spkrs Ive hadin past such as Jensen C12N, even my 16ohm celestion blackback in my WEM, tbh sound tonally 'ballpark identical' to me/ defo nothing like this P12Q brightness.

What Im needing to know is A) brightness, and B) wattage-relating-to-loudness.

Ok B) first. If for eg I hook up a 25w speaker (ive researched a jensen C12R might be a good choice) instead of my 50w now, is it defo going to be less loud? Is there a direct correlation between the W rating and its loudness/ a general firm rule here? For eg, one Youtube DRRI clip of a Ltd Edition RI the guy mentions 'this ltd edition has a 35w spkr so less wattage than stock, so once it breaks up at 5 it doesnt get much louder up to 10 unlike the stock spkr'. This is something in 30 years of gtr Ive never even known, if true and a *general rule regarding lower W spkrs relating to lower volume (dB rating I guess). You see if a 25w spkr can be used ok with a "22w" DRRI, and the *rule is true, then this suits me very well. And if I can find one that -is in practise/ actuality, IE not just subjectively- brighter voiced too then Ive found my spkr.. if its not stupidly-bright as the P12Q seemed unquestionably to be that is.

A) anyone know the jensen C12R 25w 8ohm, and can confirm it is a brighter-voiced speaker?

C) can a 25w speaker be used safely with a "22w" DRRI?

Thanks, SC.

[J M Fahey]

I hooked amp up with a jensen P12Q & altho not mounted (on table next-to, firing up) I was shocked at how overtly-bright and utterly different it sounded- Im not wanting this sort of brightness at all!

Very poor test, mount it in a proper sized cabinet to hear its real sound.

A

not mounted (on table next-to, firing up)

turns a good 12" speaker into a poor tweeter, you can't complain then about its "brightness".

Use a C12N which is rated 50W ; a 25W one means playing with fire.

It will also be brighter-but-fuller sounding (if mounted in a cabinet, that is ) plus it will be more efficient and punchier.

By the way, it's the closest speaker to what Leo wanted, way back then.

[Justin Thomas]

Hey Chief,

Edit: What Juan said! Then you can read my opinions if you want...

A: Compare any speakers you'd like to try on a level playing field -- preferably mounted in the cabinet, of course... Another issue is that it could have gotten mushy over it's lifetime, sucking water into the cone. Perhaps getting it dried out a bit may restore some crispness? Hey, it's free to try, instead of replacing one of the most expensive parts in an amp. Of course, if you live in Baton Rouge, just forget it... :P

B: No, wattage handling has nothing to do with how "loud" a speaker is. The EFFICIENCY does. [Edit: questionable "facts" removed pending further correction from ACTUAL experts! ] It's the reason the same amp at the same settings with two different cabs can sound dramatically different in the volume dept. Sensitivity is a HUGE deal.

C: Celestion rates fairly conservatively, and I wouldn't hesitate to blast a 25W Cel on 10 w. a DR clone. Other companies, I'd give myself a safety margin. But if the sensitivity/efficiency & freq response are the same and the price is okay with you, just get a 30+W speaker, IMO. I personally am not a big fan of "speaker distortion," so I tend to overdo it on wattage.

All this is why I just scavenge speakers from busted amps... it can get expensive, sampling speakers! Hope that helps in your quest,

Justin

[Sea Chief]

Hey Chief,

Edit: What Juan said! Then you can read my opinions if you want...

A: Compare any speakers you'd like to try on a level playing field -- preferably mounted in the cabinet, of course... Another issue is that it could have gotten mushy over it's lifetime, sucking water into the cone. Perhaps getting it dried out a bit may restore some crispness? Hey, it's free to try, instead of replacing one of the most expensive parts in an amp. Of course, if you live in Baton Rouge, just forget it... :P

B: No, wattage handling has nothing to do with how "loud" a speaker is. The EFFICIENCY does. A speaker rated at 94dB/W (or however they write the rating - usually called "sensitivity" or "efficiency") is perceived HALF as loud as one rated at 97dB/W. Same as a doubling of amp power gets you the same 3dB increase. It's the reason the same amp at the same settings with two different cabs can sound dramatically different in the volume dept. Sensitivity is a HUGE deal.

C: Celestion rates fairly conservatively, and I wouldn't hesitate to blast a 25W Cel on 10 w. a DR clone. Other companies, I'd give myself a safety margin. But if the sensitivity/efficiency & freq response are the same and the price is okay with you, just get a 30+W speaker, IMO. I personally am not a big fan of "speaker distortion," so I tend to overdo it on wattage.

All this is why I just scavenge speakers from busted amps... it can get expensive, sampling speakers! Hope that helps in your quest,

Justin

Thanks for reply chaps-

ok that test with the P12Q was useless then.. it sounded morelike a tweeter indeed! (made me Q my DR amp, completely unexpectedly).

I realise efficiency is the measure of loudness (altho just 3dB between a 94dB rated spkr and a 97dB and the loudeness DOUBLES?! is news to me: crikey so youve got a scale of only 5dB lets say between 94 and 99 to be precise to land on, should you have a 15w 5E3 for eg and drums to consider it being used with).. but what I was wanting to know is whether there is a direct correlation between a speakers wattage rating and it dB rating?

IE, the eg I mentioned/ chap saying "as its a less wattage spkr at 35 not 50, then this amp doesnt get louder once past 5 on the dial compared to the stock 50w". This implies there -IS- a direct correlation (unless the guy was talking complete nonsnese: but he seemed to say it as if it were common knowledge as if its is a 'page 1 known rule of thumb').

Does a 25w speaker always, or most likely to have a dB in the 94 area.. and a 200w speaker always, or most likely to have a dB in the 100 area?

Thats my Q.
And why would a 25w speaker be not suitable for a 22w amp?

Thanks, SC.

[Justin Thomas]

Chief,

I edited my post cause I doubted my own "facts" after you brought it to my attention that something seemed fishy... Thanks! I stand by "efficiency is a HUGE deal," though.

In short, no, a higher powered speaker is not necessarily more efficient. It's not as big an issue in guitar land, but in bass land it is. The way they get 500W bass speakers (aside from inflation of numbers) is by making the speaker parts so massive to absorb all that power (read, heat) generated by the amp, which means the parts move slower (inertia) and so efficiency is lowered. So to get the same volume from the bass amp, they need more power, which means higher power-handling speakers, which means less efficient, which means a bigger amp... It's become a death spiral.

And why a 25W speaker isn't safe for a 25W amp? Those 22W fpr the DR are measured barely at clipping, which is probably quite low on your volume knob. At "full-tilt-boogie," your DR is probably putting out a good bit more power than that, on average. You might be able to get away with it if you play squeaky clean all the time, but that just defeats the point of playing a 22W amp in the first place.

Justin

[Sea Chief]

Ok, so why would my eg chap say "as its a less wattage spkr [in the Ltd Edition DR] at 35 not 50, then this amp doesnt get louder once past 5 on the dial compared to the stock 50w".

Is he talking complete nonsense?

[Sea Chief]

Very poor test, mount it in a proper sized cabinet to hear its real sound.

A turns a good 12" speaker into a poor tweeter, you can't complain then about its "brightness".

Use a C12N which is rated 50W ; a 25W one means playing with fire.

It will also be brighter-but-fuller sounding (if mounted in a cabinet, that is ) plus it will be more efficient and punchier.

By the way, it's the closest speaker to what Leo wanted, way back then.

But I had a C12N (albeit in a different circuit, a tweed deluxe 5E3) and it wasn't a bright speaker, it was pretty dark/ in fact very similarly voiced to the one Im trying to replace.

[Justin Thomas]

Speakers don't put out power, they absorb it. That particular 35W speaker MAY be less efficient than the 50W one, and so the 35W speaker will put out, pulling numbers out of air here for example, 12 of the amp's 22W as sound, the other 10 are absorbed in the speaker as heat. That particular 50W speaker MAY be more efficient, and put out 20 of the amp's 22W with only 2W absorbed as heat. Guess which one will be peceived as louder? Your 50W speaker very well may BE louder, but that's not because you can put more watts into it, it's because it spits more of the input back out at you.

The wattage of a speaker is how much you can SHOVE INTO it. The efficiency is how much it will SPIT BACK OUT at you. You could also get a very efficient low wattage speaker (Vox Bulldog), or a very inefficient high wattage speaker (any modern "bass" speaker will do).

Justin

[J M Fahey]

But I had a C12N (albeit in a different circuit, a tweed deluxe 5E3) and it wasn't a bright speaker, it was pretty dark/ in fact very similarly voiced to the one Im trying to replace.

The Tweed Deluxe is somewhat dark (or not as bright as more modern amps, definitely darker than Blackface/Silverface) , try it on the actual amp you'll use.

FWIW people usually complain about "modern Italian Jensens being too bright/shrill/icepicky" so they can't exactly be accused of being "dark" , so clearly the problem lied in the amp.

[Sea Chief]

The Tweed Deluxe is somewhat dark (or not as bright as more modern amps, definitely darker than Blackface/Silverface) , try it on the actual amp you'll use.

FWIW people usually complain about "modern Italian Jensens being too bright/shrill/icepicky" so they can't exactly be accused of being "dark" , so clearly the problem lied in the amp.

Firstly some great info on here, undoubtedly so- thanks for replies chaps.

Yes I realise the 5E3 is a darker amp and so the C12N would in theory should sound brighter in my DRRI. Trouble is of course I dont have the option/ luxury of 'just try one in your amp' or have a number I could physically/ sonically choose from (nor do any of us, so the only thing possible is research > buy > we are hugely luckier having the fab resourse of Youtube thesedays and www info to help).. and for some reason my DR is the opposite of a usual bright ice-picky one: mine's actually pretty dark on the whole (but short of a 5E3- thats just far too muddy for me).

So Im doing the research, but Im still stuck on the basics. You see if I can get a set of rules (apart from merely a 97dB spkr will sound 2x as loud as a 94dB spkr, as useful and new this info is to me) that are firm from one info source to the next I can bank this as true/ use it to choose.

For eg, on here How to select speakers | fenderguru.com (which seems to be a wonderful resource/ exactly what I need as background info)

it states "A low power speaker will have better transparency, efficiency, sustain and speaker weight". Which conflicts & totally opposes the EG I referred to in relation to a correlation between W and efficiency. And Ive read plenty of times, that a higher wattage speaker is chosen to increase volume implying there is a direct correlation but opposite to what above info states and reply above too, & opposes my eg guy who states 'this ltd edition 35w speaker wont go loud past 5, wheres the stock 50w does'.

Too much conflicting info: its is as much a hinderance as a help; one caveat of the www (amongst many). I dont know where the dickens Im at now.

[pdf64]

'I hooked amp up with a jensen P12Q & altho not mounted (on table next-to, firing up) I was shocked at how overtly-bright and utterly different it sounded- Im not wanting this sort of brightness at all!- at least it gave me food for thought. The few 12" spkrs Ive hadin past such as Jensen C12N, even my 16ohm celestion blackback in my WEM, tbh sound tonally 'ballpark identical' to me/ defo nothing like this P12Q brightness'

If not in a cab, a speaker sounds ABSOLUTELY DIFFERENT!
Try taking the Peavey speaker out and put it next to it and compare.
The Jensen will almost certainly sound fine in a cab.

'Ok, so why would my eg chap say "as its a less wattage spkr [in the Ltd Edition DR] at 35 not 50, then this amp doesnt get louder once past 5 on the dial compared to the stock 50w".
Is he talking complete nonsense?'

Yes, I think that's nonsense.

Anything on fenderguru.com should be taken with a pinch of salt; lots of assertion, golden eared hyperbole, little real technical understanding that I can discern.

A speaker's characteristics are a combination of numerous factors, it's nonsensical to state that lower powered speakers all tend to sound like XYZ.

[Sea Chief]

'I hooked amp up with a jensen P12Q & altho not mounted (on table next-to, firing up) I was shocked at how overtly-bright and utterly different it sounded- Im not wanting this sort of brightness at all!- at least it gave me food for thought. The few 12" spkrs Ive hadin past such as Jensen C12N, even my 16ohm celestion blackback in my WEM, tbh sound tonally 'ballpark identical' to me/ defo nothing like this P12Q brightness'

If not in a cab, a speaker sounds ABSOLUTELY DIFFERENT!
Try taking the Peavey speaker out and put it next to it and compare.
The Jensen will almost certainly sound fine in a cab.

'Ok, so why would my eg chap say "as its a less wattage spkr [in the Ltd Edition DR] at 35 not 50, then this amp doesnt get louder once past 5 on the dial compared to the stock 50w".
Is he talking complete nonsense?'

Yes, I think that's nonsense.

Anything on fenderguru.com should be taken with a pinch of salt; lots of assertion, golden eared hyperbole, little real technical understanding that I can discern.

A speaker's characteristics are a combination of numerous factors, it's nonsensical to state that lower powered speakers all tend to sound like XYZ.

Ok point taken with the p12q- a rubbish test then.

I certainly wasnt stating "lower powered speakers all tend to sound like XYZ" certainly no-one/ nowhere else was either. Its precisely the fact that they obviously wont sound the same is why Im trying to find one thats brighter.. trouble is on one site X spkr is bright, next site its the opposite dark and dull. Same as you saying take the fenderguru with a pinch of salt: if I do that then I must take replies here with a pinch of salt too (its a comprehensive overview from quite obviously a very informed source, how can I distrust it?).. and same as one site implying, by putting into practise not just guessing that a 35w spkr is by default less efficient than a 50w spkr, another site stating exactly the opposite.

Its all the fun of the internet- whose opinion do I trust? "well why do you ask on here then..?" [I hear you asking] because Im hoping to find at least 2 places of merit (one here, definitely) where the opinions coincide in order to deem it good info & factually correct/ that's just good research id have thought.

cheers SC

[Tom Phillips]

...'Ok, so why would my eg chap say "as its a less wattage spkr [in the Ltd Edition DR] at 35 not 50, then this amp doesnt get louder once past 5 on the dial compared to the stock 50w". Is he talking complete nonsense?'

Yes, I think that's nonsense...

I'll agree and say it is total utter nonsense. There is ample information on the internet explaining the physics of speakers and how they are rated and how those rating affect the resulting sound produced. This includes the effects of mounting the speaker in a cabinet as has been mentioned above. This knowledge is not exclusive to the guitar amp community. Sometimes, I think that readers of forums like this believe that we operate under special rules of electronics and physics. We do operate at different points on the curve and outside many traditional guidelines but the laws of electronics and physics do not change. The best way to avoid the pitfalls of the utter nonsense floating around is to learn the basics. Then you have a foundation for further discussion, experimentation and discovery. Without the basics one is lost as if you are trying to join the band before learning how to play your instrument.

[Justin Thomas]

Chief,

This doesn't address the particular speaker you're asking about, but it's a condensed list showing power handling and efficiency are not necessarily related. Check the Texas Heat, Cannabis Rex, and Commonwealth in particular. If your chap knows the dpecs of your 50W speaker (Peavey?) He MAY be right, but it's not a fact for ALL speakers...

Patriot Series | Eminence Speaker

Another thing is, frequency responses... bright is more a factor of that than wattage and efficiency. Nice thing about Eminencecis they publish their data sheets...

Part of the issue here is that there are no real standards for testing/ratings... the only "standard" I've seen is "mount it in an infinite baffle of infinite size," which is interpreted as drill a hole in the wall and mountbit. Toyally useless standard for guitar amps! It's definitely frustrating to have to look for a sound sample or review of your exact speaker in the exact amp... If you haven't yet, try mounting yhe Jensen in the cab & let us know the result. Another thing is, I think some guys here a while back tried to start a speaker swapping ring - check it out, reach out, some may be interested still in trading swapping. I think the idea was to just pay shippjng and not worry about paying for the speakers.

Of course, there IS the significantly cheaper option of modding the amp to suit the too-bright speaker...

Don'tt give up!

Justin

[Sea Chief]

Thanks chaps-

I would love to swap my crap PV for a really good jensen on the swap-club whatnot! Pls pm me.

I dont take things for gospel esp on Youtube (chap's 35w/ 50w "nonsense" eg).. I just try and find similarity between two good sources, rather than, with respect to you'all taking the info here for gospel.

Well call me a dutchman but after looking at the jensen C12 series specs, there's unquestionably a direct correlation between wattage rating and efficiency (and in effect, some truth in what our "nonsense" chap said after all)..

jensen C12R 25w = 93.8 db
C12Q 35w = 94.6 db
C12N 50w = 98.4 db
C12K 100w = 99 db

(P12Q 40w = 95 db fits perfectly in here too).

Ok nevermind. Horses for courses etc. Ive made a choice anyway on the C12Q 35w while farting around the jensen site: its innefficient which is priority, and brighter-voiced afaict from the sound samples (a rough guide only sure) as it sounds -a country mile- better than the C12N for eg, its brighter no farty-bass-mid thing ruining the sound- this is what I remember the C12N I had was like, farty-bloaty, dull and decidedly un-bright/ an absolutely awful speaker for my 5E3. Good. Sorted.

Thanks again chaps- useful info and very much appreciated/ I re-read all of your posts & do learn from them. SC