DR: OT @ 2 Ohms/ 10" spkr Q.

[eschertron]

If there is no bright cap, or it is small then there may be no brightening at all. Some would argue that the 'perfect' bright cap is one that gives the aural impression of no change in brightness as the vol is rolled down. Others may argue that some brightness is good, as it helps the (now quieter) guitar cut through. Even others may want to make the brightness so that the quieter guitar resembles the sound of a strummy acoustic, all 'pick and string noise' and almost no resonance.

I don't have any hard data at hand, but I'd bet a cold one that there are guitar models that have selectable bright caps for the tweakiest of users.

edit: but to speak to your specifics; I imagine that a HB-equipped guitar that is none to bright to start with would need a big honkin' bright cap to have a noticable effect when rolling down. Maybe 2-3 times what's in there now as a bright cap. Often the caps inside a guitar are small enough to not have much info printed on them. If you can get a wiring diagram from the manufacturer for your model SG then maybe you can post what the value is now. Oh, and move this discussion to a new thread

[Chuck H]

+1 to all the info so far about "bright cap"s. In my own guitar I use a 220p cap IN SERIES WITH a 100k resistor. A sort of unusual arrangement. But this guitar has both singles and a humbucker and I'm after the "more or less of the same sound" option. As eschertron notes, this isn't always the goal. What my arrangement does is:

The guitar does darken when the volume is rolled down to 9 or 8, but then...

It starts to brighten when rolled down below 8. But with too much accentuation on the very high frequencies. Then...

From about 6 down to 3 it sounds like less of the full setting sound, with a tiny bit more treble. Then...

It gets brighter again in all the treble frequencies and some upper mids from 3 down. This allows me to:

Play clean with good cut with the volume at 3 or below.
Get into mid distorted tones with just a little too much glassy top with the volume between 4 and 7. But it works well enough.
Crank the knob for a fully saturated tone.

Not perfect, but pretty good. And I can do all this without punching a pedal or changing amp settings. Pretty cool.

The different cap value required by singles and humbuckers and/or different volume pot values diminishes with the series resistor. If you can get enough brightening with a series resistor then it can help equalize the effect for all pickups. I've had good results for MY personal sound with values between 68k and 150k depending on the guitar.

Just my own experience on the mater from a "player tweaking his gear" perspective.

[Sea Chief]

Christ another layer of complexity to add to the mix. Ok so Im not one for tailoring the caps/ thats way too excessive and a faff I cant be done with as Im still a mile away from getting the right amp. What I did do tho, and back to the gibson Im afraid, is change it from modern to 50's wiring (to brighten a tad/ worked but marginally so). Am I right that this wiring's drawback is when rolling vols the tone -doesnt- brighten, like the modern gibson wiring? (which they may have introduced in order to get the brightening trick anyway). If so Im gonna have to change it back!

Btw tried the DOM + attenuator to better results than the DR. DOM at max + attenuator near maxed theres some OD sure, albeit some mild fizzyiness to the notes (like a secondary tinny distortion, same on the DR) which seems to inhibit the proper OD tone behind afaict. I need to have treble 10 bass 2 and bright switch on too.. but interesting to finally hear it ~approximately~ as it would likely be cranked, and maybe useable. Unit gets hot but not super-hot.

Thanks, SC

[Leo_Gnardo]

Christ another layer of complexity to add to the mix. Ok so Im not one for tailoring the caps/ thats way too excessive and a faff I cant be done with as Im still a mile away from getting the right amp.

Writing from FAFF World Headquarters, also known as my workshop, I'd say don't shy away from bright caps, and selecting which works best for your guitars & ears. Back to your regularly scheduled activities everyone, signing off now.

[Chuck H]

Christ another layer of complexity to add to the mix. Ok so Im not one for tailoring the caps/ thats way too excessive and a faff I cant be done with as Im still a mile away from getting the right amp. What I did do tho, and back to the gibson Im afraid, is change it from modern to 50's wiring (to brighten a tad/ worked but marginally so). Am I right that this wiring's drawback is when rolling vols the tone -doesnt- brighten, like the modern gibson wiring? (which they may have introduced in order to get the brightening trick anyway). If so Im gonna have to change it back!

Btw tried the DOM + attenuator to better results than the DR. DOM at max + attenuator near maxed theres some OD sure, albeit some mild fizzyiness to the notes (like a secondary tinny distortion, same on the DR) which seems to inhibit the proper OD tone behind afaict. I need to have treble 10 bass 2 and bright switch on too.. but interesting to finally hear it ~approximately~ as it would likely be cranked, and maybe useable. Unit gets hot but not super-hot.

Thanks, SC

That slight fizziness you hear from your push/pull amps is likely crossover distortion. You probably don't hear it as much without the attenuator because at higher sound pressure levels your ears just don't pick it up as much and/or the speaker is able to reproduce the fizz better at very low levels than when the cone is flapping like a flag in the wind. But the crossover distortion is present whenever such amps are clipped. On that note...

The reduction in treble from the attenuator was confusing me because I've never noticed it being objectionable with my units. But I was thinking... The control settings you're using on your DR aren't unusual for Fender BF amps when clipped. Ordinarily if you try to OD such designs with the bass above 2 and the treble below 6 the tone becomes flabby and undefined. Though the actual EQ depends on the OT and speaker the IMPRESSION is too much bass and not enough treble in the tone. It's just a fact of life when cranking these designs. There could be a similar phenomenon happening with the Dominator. In other words, it may not be the attenuator as much as the amp. Unless you can crank up that rheostat to hear the amps with those settings at higher levels, and play them long enough for an honest evaluation instead of the "still in shock at the volume" impression, we don't know.

[Sea Chief]

Ah ok I understand that Chuck. As long as the fizz is normal (good in one way that I heard on the DOM too) fine, its not intrusive now I know that. The DR does have quite a fat sound, I think in fact better suited to single coils when cranked perhaps. Im still amazed by how good the Champ sounds now: ok not the amp I wanted to pin that brown sound on, but Im so digging it (with the fender gtrs only) never thinking it could get so acurately to 'that sound I wanted in my head/ I knew was there s'where waiting' so all hail to -Chuck's contraption-.

I will experiment, but think Im happier using the DR without -your contraption- so hot it got (& how costly tubes are if Im pushing hard for not the results Im getting with the 5F1). Now I know how the DOM sounds "cranked" (good, and notes 'stay' nicely but not the flat-out raunch Id hoped) I can sell it I think: thats good as it sits there too much & needs s'one to play it properly. Need the cash as I bought a tele too, couldnt resist. May think about an MV amp though with proceeds form DOM + SG, maybe a super sonic head: sorry to have to say so but it does make sense.

[Chuck H]

Well you should get whatever works for you. And if the Dominator doesn't then it should prove a great source of funds for something that does. Players love the Super Sonic. I don't. But not for any reason other than it's not my sound. I liked the Prosonic a lot better and it's a very similar amp. Good luck finding one to try out. Owners almost never sell them.

If you can find a good MV amp that gives you what you want you'll have to get back to playing instead of mucking about with all the gear! How's that going to work!

[Sea Chief]

Actually DOMs are a plenty here and dont go for much more than $240 on a good day. I'll look into the prosonic, maybe a Concert 2 might fit the bill too (D.Boon used for Doublenickels on the dime, with a tele straight-in & it dont get much better than that IMO).

Im fed up with mucking about, cos unlike hifi DIY in which everything I tried worked A+ / every tweak or build got major results every time, its been a real struggle with tube amps. If only I hadnt skived off school on wed evenings at 16, getting rat-arsed on guinness watching the local blues bands competing away.. then Id probably been none the wiser re tube combos. Pretty cool for an oxfordshire village in 80's! got me hooked on the sound.. but alas from then til now & countless amps striving away Ive never nailed or even got close to that true OD sound. Now I can albeit a piddly Champ.

[Sea Chief]

If there is no bright cap, or it is small then there may be no brightening at all. Some would argue that the 'perfect' bright cap is one that gives the aural impression of no change in brightness as the vol is rolled down. Others may argue that some brightness is good, as it helps the (now quieter) guitar cut through. Even others may want to make the brightness so that the quieter guitar resembles the sound of a strummy acoustic, all 'pick and string noise' and almost no resonance.

I don't have any hard data at hand, but I'd bet a cold one that there are guitar models that have selectable bright caps for the tweakiest of users.

edit: but to speak to your specifics; I imagine that a HB-equipped guitar that is none to bright to start with would need a big honkin' bright cap to have a noticable effect when rolling down. Maybe 2-3 times what's in there now as a bright cap. Often the caps inside a guitar are small enough to not have much info printed on them. If you can get a wiring diagram from the manufacturer for your model SG then maybe you can post what the value is now. Oh, and move this discussion to a new thread

I think I'll get hounded outta town if I started a new thread on this! good info re the HB's. Gtr bright caps is an area Id not even thought needed any consideration- I assumed all gtrs had a basic similar-brightness-when-vol-rolled-ratio-to-whatever-it-was-at-full, which seems perfectly sensible to me. If only then. I cant go down the route of changing/ finding the right one etc.. I cant deal with even considering after my amp journeys Im absolutely exhausted with tbh. I just want to play a bit into the Champ at last.

Very grateful to all the help (I think Im signing off this thread as it were). SC

[Leo_Gnardo]

Gtr bright caps is an area Id not even thought needed any consideration- I assumed all gtrs had a basic similar-brightness-when-vol-rolled-ratio-to-whatever-it-was-at-full, which seems perfectly sensible to me.

Don't look now but you can also put brightening cap into your speaker attenuator. THD does with theirs. The faff goes on & on.

Glad to hear your hi fi efforts paid off. Sound reproduction, simple enough. As you see, sound production is a limitless can of worms, very subjective, gotta keep the players and the listeners both happy, plus engineers, producers & record company executives when you hit the big time. But that's why we love it.

[eschertron]

Im absolutely exhausted with tbh. I just want to play a bit into the Champ at last.

I'm glad you're at a point of repose where you can find enjoyment and satisfaction. Not a bad place to be, not at all.

I'm at a similar 'plateau' myself. Been beating my gray matter against an 18W design that sounds plain awful when I crank it. I think I'll take a cue from you and play a guitar i love through an amp (not that one) that brings me aural joy. At least until the urge to tweak becomes irresistible again.

[Sea Chief]

Don't look now but you can also put brightening cap into your speaker attenuator. THD does with theirs. The faff goes on & on.

Glad to hear your hi fi efforts paid off. Sound reproduction, simple enough. As you see, sound production is a limitless can of worms, very subjective, gotta keep the players and the listeners both happy, plus engineers, producers & record company executives when you hit the big time. But that's why we love it.

Well, that would be easy to impliment being a diddy unit with a few things in (not knock the gtr, swear, singe the iron on mahog in a fiddly job, cry.. which is going to happen sooner or later if I keep dicking about in there).

I wonder if Chuck has an opinion as to where it might go in his weird conraption.

[Sea Chief]

I'm glad you're at a point of repose where you can find enjoyment and satisfaction. Not a bad place to be, not at all.

I'm at a similar 'plateau' myself. Been beating my gray matter against an 18W design that sounds plain awful when I crank it. I think I'll take a cue from you and play a guitar i love through an amp (not that one) that brings me aural joy. At least until the urge to tweak becomes irresistible again.

I always aim low as poss and expect minimal results, then if goes well its such a treat.

Im going to try the DR cranked with my tele or 20quidstrat vol rolled right off.. forgot to try this before as Im so unused to using the vol anything but 10.

[Justin Thomas]

I'll look into the prosonic...

Wish you weren't across the pond; I got one for sale cheap. (Hey Chuck!) AND a Champ that has MORE than enough grind. Starts fuzzing out on "3." Drat...

A Prosonic sounds best at loud volumes, but it CAN sound good at low volumes, with the right EQ and other settings. It's quite a versatile amp.

Justin

[Sea Chief]

Thanks- but 110v / 240v though.. I'll look into these amps.

We need to swap Champs.. mine only goes brown at 8+.