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  • #16
    Ah! That's a great question! Ok, this is based on MHO and personal observations...

    At "vintage" levels (read "class A" VOX, etc.) around 335V to 345V, biased at 100% they do sound a little more chimey and sweet, but not much balls or dynamics. It's a very specific tone that some guys dig. Then there are amps that run them hard at 390V to 420V (usually just a 10V-20V less on the screens) but with a cooler bias. At which point they lose any signature character and sound like mini 6550's Tight and surprisingly strident and powerful with a lot more LF authority and dynamics, but no chime or noteworthy compression. I like them between 350V to 365V with 10V-20V less on the screens. They do keep some compression like this, not much chime though. But they still sound like power tubes working hard and they have a lot more balls in the LF. My opinion is that the absolute RIGHT voltage depends a lot on the preamp they're amplifying since this, and the power tube character will combine to create all the attributes of the final tone. Whenever the chance presents itself I would suggest starting high and working down with series zeners until you like what you hear for a specific amp. Then install a PT suited to THAT voltage. A PITA I agree. But a lot of us have odd transformers around so it's not usually impossible. el84's are probably my favorite tube. They can sound any way you want them to, from soft and small to big and strong dependent on plate voltage. Some designers have taken advantage of this. Like the Peavey Classic 30 vs. the Classic 50. Same amp, different plate voltage, and very different from one another. It doesn't hurt that the el84 is available in several brands and affordable. They don't tend to last long because they become mechanically unstable (microphonic). My new fave is a Russian tube that is selected for mechanical stability because my own amp is a combo. But three of my customers use heads and there is no need for selected tubes for equal tone. YMMV.
    "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
    You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by bob p View Post
      Chuck, I'm wondering if you ever dropped down to something smaller like the 270DX. Might just fit the bill...
      I used a DX for a 2xel84 reverb effect combo. It filches a watt from the host amp to drive a reverb tank and then re amplifies it into a 10" speaker. So that unit never sees clipping. The amps I use the EX for pretty much live dimed. I did, however, make it a point to disconnect the tank on that unit and plug a guitar in. It sounded good. The Classic Tone OT I used was a lot more narrow and boxy in response than the Hammond 1608 and Heyboer trannies I use in the guitar amps. But the PT didn't seem to exhibit any excessive sag or heat. I didn't play it long and there was no bench testing involved though. I was actually eyeing the DX for the original guitar amp design but went with the EX just to be on the safe side since the design is intended to do things like play a three hour gig at full tilt. I'm pretty sure the DX would be up to it as well. It's VERY hard to overtax a Hammond tranny within reason.
      "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

      "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

      "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
      You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

      Comment


      • #18
        Just to point out that when we look at excess B+ levels, it is not just about the tube ratings, but also filter cap voltage ratings which can be less forgiving.
        Originally posted by Enzo
        I have a sign in my shop that says, "Never think up reasons not to check something."


        Comment


        • #19
          Why I build tiny amps in jumbo chassis - then proceed to fill all the empty space with series-ed filter caps!

          Seriously, that's a more excellent consideration, and maybe one that we should all take note of... having been on the receiving end of a l ytic blowing up in my face. We all should remeber that voltages can rise significantly when tubes are out forbids diagnostics. Makes me glad I paid the extra $40 for the uprated can in my newest build. Maybe now I can check voltages without the power tubes in.

          Justin
          Last edited by Justin Thomas; 07-28-2016, 07:24 PM.
          "Wow it's red! That doesn't look like the standard Marshall red. It's more like hooker lipstick/clown nose/poodle pecker red." - Chuck H. -
          "Of course that means playing **LOUD** , best but useless solution to modern sissy snowflake players." - J.M. Fahey -
          "All I ever managed to do with that amp was... kill small rodents within a 50 yard radius of my practice building." - Tone Meister -

          Comment


          • #20
            On my first JCM-800 2204 clone I built, I pulled the ClassicTone PT, just for that reason.
            It was over 500v, which was straining the 500v Can caps I had in the amp.
            I went with the vintage Stock JCM800 PT, I got from Chuck H on a trade we did.
            That fixed the ClassicTone High PT problem I had with that amp!
            I still have the CT PT in a box, I hope to use it on a 60 watt bass head build.
            On the filter cap high voltage issue, I will do series caps, or some 600v caps, I have located.
            T
            Here's some 600v axials.
            https://www.studioelectronics.biz/su...uct_list&c=100
            Last edited by big_teee; 07-28-2016, 09:03 PM.
            "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
            Terry

            Comment


            • #21
              The only rub with series caps is that you effectively double your ESR. The upside is that with modern caps it's not an issue. Older caps almost invariably had higher ESR (from what I'm told). I've built a couple of amps with 500V+ unloaded and 450V caps for the preamp power supply nodes. I've dome some tubes out testing on them and had no trouble after almost fifteen years. So it's probably close to replacement time now. Enzo has stated repeatedly that it shouldn't be an issue and that the caps can take periodic overvoltage without consequence. Still...

              Since learning about the over voltage possibility with inrush current and unloaded power supplies I try to rate caps in new amps and designs to meet or exceed the expected high voltage. My last build has 470Vp loaded and I had already decided to change from axial to radial caps. So to get all the nodes voltage capacity high enough I had to use the totem arrangement on every node. This same build is rather full featured too as well as using a Pi filter input and a branched rail to accommodate voltage requirements for specific circuits. I think there are fourteen power supply caps in that amp!

              EDIT:Yup. Just checked the schematic. Fourteen.
              Last edited by Chuck H; 07-28-2016, 08:55 PM.
              "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

              "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

              "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
              You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Justin Thomas View Post
                ... We all should remeber that voltages can rise significantly when tubes are out forbids diagnostics. ... Maybe now I can check voltages without the power tubes in.
                I build all of my amps so that the caps can safely handle the fully unloaded open-circuit voltage delivered by the transformer when the tubes are pulled. To me it just makes no sense to design an amp that you'll have to fight with if you ever have to run diagnostics.

                I guess that not everyone is aware of this design consideration. I was helping a guy with a Masters in EE as he did a 1930s radio rebuild. He's one of those know it all guys who doesn't know all that much about tubes. I suggested that he pull all the tubes and check voltages. He insisted that only an idiot would do that, as the unloaded voltage would rise and all of his new caps would fail. I just laughed. I told him that no designer worth his salt would ever design an amp so that the caps would blow out if the tubes were pulled. That's just silly. I guess he failed to think about that when he ordered caps, and his voltage selection needed to be higher to provide that safety margin.

                Like Chuck said, with modern caps the ESR is pretty low, and a totem pole arrangement buys you lots of voltage tolerance. If cost is a concern, check out the oddball scheme that Fender used to lower the in totem pole cost on the DR reissue. They used a high voltage cap along with a medium voltage cap, and chose different ballast resistors to divide the voltage across the stack.
                "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

                "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

                Comment


                • #23
                  Well if you're Fender every penny counts I suppose. But if your building boutique or just at home the cost of 350V caps is very reasonable and a totem gives you 700V capability!
                  "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

                  "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

                  "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
                  You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by big_teee View Post
                    I built a 6v6 Plexi.
                    I used the ClassicTone 40-18016 PT for a BFDR circuit.
                    I had 485v with diodes, and 455v with 5AR4 Rectifier, with 2 6v6s, 3 12AX7s.
                    I ended up with 435v, (which is higher than desired for my Tung Sol 6v6GTs) using a 100ohm resistor on the C.T.(center tap) to ground.
                    I'm kicking around the idea of converting my Plexi Jr. amp to Tung Sol 7591As.
                    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...6flO08LAz8a7Kw
                    with the higher plate voltage limits, and the tubes would load my CT PT B+, about right.
                    I could go back to full unrestricted diode rectifiers.
                    I think the 6.6k OT I have would be fine.
                    Has anyone done this, and does anyone see any major snags?
                    I realize I would have to rewire the 8 pin tube sockets.
                    T
                    "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
                    Terry

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      The only instances I know of where people went from 6V6 => 7591 was in the early 60s Ampegs. They had switched from 7591 to 6V6 and then back again. Apparently the 6V6s were too dirty sounding? I once wired a 7591 into my Champ & rebiased, and ran into the opposite problem - 7591s were too dirty!

                      I've got three (I think) pairs of UOS real 7591As lying around, along with a PT from an Ampeg GU-12... make offer?
                      The GU-12 ran ~370V on the plates of the 7591s with a FWB diode recto.

                      Justin
                      "Wow it's red! That doesn't look like the standard Marshall red. It's more like hooker lipstick/clown nose/poodle pecker red." - Chuck H. -
                      "Of course that means playing **LOUD** , best but useless solution to modern sissy snowflake players." - J.M. Fahey -
                      "All I ever managed to do with that amp was... kill small rodents within a 50 yard radius of my practice building." - Tone Meister -

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Justin Thomas View Post
                        The only instances I know of where people went from 6V6 => 7591 was in the early 60s Ampegs. They had switched from 7591 to 6V6 and then back again. Apparently the 6V6s were too dirty sounding? I once wired a 7591 into my Champ & rebiased, and ran into the opposite problem - 7591s were too dirty!

                        I've got three (I think) pairs of UOS real 7591As lying around, along with a PT from an Ampeg GU-12... make offer?
                        The GU-12 ran ~370V on the plates of the 7591s with a FWB diode recto.

                        Justin
                        What about my 6.6k OT?
                        Will that be ok for 7591s?
                        I want to use my PT.
                        It's a lay down, and fits the hole I cut for it.
                        **Edit
                        I found the tube data sheet, and the it looks like it would work fine!
                        Last edited by big_teee; 08-08-2016, 08:58 PM.
                        "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
                        Terry

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Are you using old American 7591s, or TS Russian 7591s? There is an old TS data sheet for the 7591 at tubedata.org.
                          And that data sheet lists 6600ohms as the plate-to-plate load. So, I don't think it gets much better than that! And even if it wasn't exact, I'd use it anyway - as Enzo says, it's a guitar amp, not a NASA rocket!

                          I doubt any of us can address the true accuracy of the new TS7591s to the old ones...

                          Justin
                          "Wow it's red! That doesn't look like the standard Marshall red. It's more like hooker lipstick/clown nose/poodle pecker red." - Chuck H. -
                          "Of course that means playing **LOUD** , best but useless solution to modern sissy snowflake players." - J.M. Fahey -
                          "All I ever managed to do with that amp was... kill small rodents within a 50 yard radius of my practice building." - Tone Meister -

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I don't have any tubes yet.
                            Was just kicking around the idea.
                            I was in mind of buying the TS reissue 7591s.
                            I've had pretty good luck with the tung sol reissue stuff.
                            I'll look at tubedata.org.
                            Thnx,
                            T
                            "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
                            Terry

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I have the combo chassis out of the cabinet.
                              Looking the tube sockets over again.
                              Not an easy 8 pin rewire with jks in the way.
                              So I think I will buy a set of TAD 6v6-STRs instead.
                              They have great reviews, and will handle more voltage than the Tung Sol 6V6 GTs.
                              That will also let me have the Tung Sols for backup, I don't have any other 6V6s tubes at this time.
                              I will go back to diodes, and get away from the tube rectifier, more fitting IMO for a Plexi sound.
                              T
                              "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
                              Terry

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Ressur-erection on this thread.

                                I just built a Champ-ish thing with a single ended EL34. I chose a 4k primary for no other reason than it behaved well when overdriving. Using a higher impedance seemed to allow too much power to find it's way through the screens instead. This is actually an 8k primary OT but I'm using it into a 4 ohm load.

                                EDCOR - XPP10-8K

                                Don't let the price fool you. Edcor rooked me on shipping at US $22!?!
                                Attached Files
                                "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

                                "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

                                "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
                                You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

                                Comment

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