Choosing transformers: is mercury magnetics a snake oil scheme?

[Mike K]

I'll have to say this when I was interested in them I called and I got Patrick on the phone and he was gracious enough to spend time on the phone answering all my questions even wanting to send promotional items to drum up interest locally. But i was honest with him about what I do in that it is a hobby for me and not a full time shop. It was a neat experience from my position in being able to speak to someone who didn't blow me off because I wasn't a volume customer.

In the end I did not buy from them though. Classictone got the job

nosaj

Patrick passed away, unfortunately. That was in the midst of Covid, and didn't do them any favors. The new guy they had, Dave, seemed unprepared for the level of work that job required. I'm not sure if he's still there, I haven't been building tube power amps lately, so I haven't needed any products from them. I hope they are pulling through and find some people to fill their positions.

Classic Tone died - so not much help you did for them. I always found them pretty poor but I didn't invest much in them. I talked with the president of the company a few times and he was always trying to sell me volume, which I didn't want. I did like some of the tonal aspects of the ones I used, but driven they never performed the way I wanted. Either fizzy or harsh. Every clip I've heard of them sounds fizzy as well, so I think that was something inherent to their materials or winding patterns. Some people seemed to like it, and Page used them on his amp, which wasn't a clean amp by any means. None of this could save them though. All-in-all I think they just had a failed business model. You may not like MM's, but they've been around for a long time.


I should add as far as the Fender accounts, what I was told by Patrick (and I believe) is that Fender wanted to use MM's on all their high end amps, but they could only hit their numbers on the Deluxe and the Twin. The champ used Schumacher, and that little amp was already way expensive (now like 1150, was around 1000) and the added cost of MM couldn't work for them. I'm not sure about the BF, but I'm pretty sure it was the same story. The Deluxe and Twin are simple amps with a relatively high market value, and that allows companies like Fender to use better parts stock. As you add in more tubes and reverb, and not a lot of cost increase, it gets really hard to squeeze the extra cost of high end iron.

I like Heyboer OK still - getting anything custom from them is a PITA so you're going to buy it through Mojo and have a very limited choice of what to work with. Edcor has seemed pretty good quality and tone to me, but I've mostly used that on clean, studio-type equipment so I can't speak to how they sound driven. The PTs are good. They are slow though and for me, motivation to get a project on and finished requires I'm not waiting 3 months for parts.

[pdf64]

... It was built perfectly and much better than a Hammond, and far better than Heyboer (who use wood shims in their transformers - still can't wrap my head around that - think I'm lying, I have some I can take pics of now).
…

I think that’s typical with vintage OTs, I’ve seen wood shims between armature and stack on USA and UK made stuff.
eg Super Reverb OT

[Helmholtz]

Nothing wrong with wood or cardboard shims. Neither has a magnetic or sonic effect.

[Mike K]

I think that’s typical with vintage OTs, I’ve seen wood shims between armature and stack on USA and UK made stuff.

I'd prefer it didn't living in the humid environment I do. I'm a firm believer a lot of what was done early on in the electronics industry was not great and not worth going back to - for me that includes non-grounding, cloth covered wires, paper bobbins, wood shims, etc...

If it doesn't have a sonic benefit and there's a more stable, safer and/or reliable way of doing it, I'm generally for it.

[Chuck H]

Kudos to you, Mike, for not getting all butt hurt and demonstrating a thin skin relative to my "I don't like you" slur. FWIW I'm not convinced of that anymore. But you did open with the assumption that the members here are typical of the genre only because we are a moderate bunch...

First comment: This entire thread reeks of inexperience. Don't take that personal,..

This happens to be THE premier forum when answers cannot be gleaned elsewhere. And the oldest of it's kind. Such a statement flies in the face of that reality. That said, I have to assume this was a knee jerk reaction to any opposition regarding Mercury Magnetics. Just know that this couldn't be further from the truth. You won't find a more experienced roster of contributors anywhere on line. Possibly anywhere in the world under any circumstances. Tread lightly, you're in the company of greatness (myself not included in that statement). With this in mind there is absolutely nothing but personal offense to be taken by your "First comment". This said...

I did not re read the thread yet (because I have chicken to BBQ ) but the general consensus here has never been that any MM products are "bad". Just that they are overpriced and that is what pays for the ads that hype them so they can be overpriced. MM iron always floats to the top or at least runner up in all the OT shootouts. I don't think anyone here questions their relative quality. It's the companies proclivity to market at the ignorant selling subjective terms and questionable technical attributes which they have used on an uneducated demographic to boost their sales that rubs anyone with ACTUAL experience the wrong way. The up side to this is that they DO actually make a very good product. The down side, for any buyers professional tech or otherwise, is that they're ridiculously expensive. Their brand of marketing doesn't come cheap. There are absolutely techs here that DO buy MM iron when no suitable alternative is available. They know that it will deliver the goods without any problems or compromises. I think ALL of the discussions of MM iron I've read or participated in on this forum reflect that. But this doesn't mean that equally good iron that has not been marketed somewhat nefariously isn't available in most cases. And it's these equally good and more affordable products that would be most attractive to the profoundly experienced and industry professional technicians that post on this forum.

Mercury Magnetics has absolutely sold pseudo tech at a market under educated to know the difference. This is reprehensible behavior. And even having done that no one here will say that they sell a bad bad product. We are a moderate group dealing with the facts at all turns without judgments based on taking anything personal. What is is what is. This company does this with their marketing schemes and pricing. (<period) This company sells very good transformers. (<period)

But you took offense with too little analysis and insinuated incompetency when nothing could be further from the truth. I'll defend my peeps here as you've seen.

I like your style and I hope you peruse the forum and come to some understanding about what you've read that you disagreed with.

[Mike K]

No hard feelings at all - this ain't my first rodeo Mr. Potato.


I didn't mean to sound snide but my comment was based on the fact that I saw no actual comparison within the thread - I didn't mean inexperience with electronics or amps, I meant with comparing said components.

Some will say there's no difference - I've never found that, but doing real apples to apples comparisons when you're trying to build something slightly different than a clone can be tricky. It's somewhat like comparing speakers - WTBS, I like Jensen as much as like Celestion as much as I like Weber, for the most part. There are certainly Celestions I like, and think are worth the money despite their high cost, and there are many Jensens I hate, and would rather have a Weber repop of them. I actually have a lot of mixed feelings about Weber. In all of my audio "junk", I have some of my favorite and least favorite equipment bearing their name. Some of it is absolute garbage, others gold. Other stuff doesn't look great but gets the job done.

I have to be honest when it comes to guitar equipment and amps I can't think of one company who hasn't been spewing some kind of BS here or there (don't forget mag comp aka classic tone going on about how their paper bobbins made their tone!). Some do it sparingly, others seems to have it on full tilt. I feel like some talk some $hit, but then back it up. I guess this is why I always gave Merc a pass. I wanted to hate them - and they didn't jibe with me at first, but now I've come to really appreciate what they have and find it unique from other transformer suppliers.

Also I'll say not everyone that is worth working with is always easy to work with. I tried to illustrate that I'm also that way as well. I certainly had my ideas and biases 10 years ago that have changed in some ways, mainly based on experience and learning that what I thought I knew was not as much as I actually knew.

I also think tube amps vary so much that it's really hard to pin down one exact thing. And one big factor is actual personal perception - sometimes I think something sounds great and a week later I can't stand it. And that's with zero tweaks. Just my mood, changing the room, changing up my playing style.

Personally I don't think MM is really overpriced for what it is though, at least what I've bought. They quickly put me on their discount pricing after I bought a couple things and for something that has a fair amount of labor to build and tune by hand, I think it's worth it over a machine wound part. Maybe that's consistency, maybe it's the winding patterns they can use? I like the PTs over Hammond, for instance, because they actually use more iron and never get even slightly warm to the touch when kept within the limits (they'll tell you if you buy one and ask). OTOH I feel the universal Hammonds are using the absolute minimum core size they can get away with. WTBS, I've also run them over spec for many years, and never killed one.... But I will also say overworked PTs don't sound as good IMO. Skimpy PSU designs generally don't sound that good IMO.

I've come to terms that I can't really quantify these type of things in terms of published specs. The best thing you can do is test. I'll say the same for speakers - even looking at frequency plots for something like the G12 Celestions (which are all pretty similar) I can't figure out how that translates to actual sound because a g12M, g12H and g12 alnico all sound VASTLY different to me both clean and driven with the same amp and guitar. I put about the same amount of faith someone telling me the core size, wattage and impedance of an OT. All I can tell from that is if it will work safely for my design, not how it will sound.

I love when I find something that is less expensive AND sounds best (to me), but that's rare.

[g1]

Mercury Magnetics has absolutely sold pseudo tech at a market under educated to know the difference.

For me, this is pretty much the crux of the matter. Owners are told that their OEM is inferior quality and they need to upgrade for substantial dollars.
Odds are that louder or 'beefier' will be perceived as better, and if not, the confirmation bias having spent that kind of money may be insurmountable.
Whether the 'upgraded' product sounds like the real deal anymore seems to not matter. Or the value of having the original parts.

If they were selling expensive replacement parts for broken amps without all the 'upgrade' stuff, I would not have a problem with them. On the upside, I guess lots of those 'inferior' parts that got upgraded end up on the market.

[Mike K]

For me, this is pretty much the crux of the matter. Owners are told that their OEM is inferior quality and they need to upgrade for substantial dollars.
Odds are that louder or 'beefier' will be perceived as better, and if not, the confirmation bias having spent that kind of money may be insurmountable.
Whether the 'upgraded' product sounds like the real deal anymore seems to not matter. Or the value of having the original parts.

If they were selling expensive replacement parts for broken amps without all the 'upgrade' stuff, I would not have a problem with them. On the upside, I guess lots of those 'inferior' parts that got upgraded end up on the market.

Is it really a lie if you believe it?


Every aftermarket supplier makes that claim either explicitly or implicitly. Part of their business model is to take production amps, look at the transformers they have and try to improve them in some way. In some instances there may not be a big improvement - for instance, a lot of OEM PTs are quite overspec'd to avoid warranty issues. Perhaps there are marginal gains to be had there, but I'm certainly skeptical. In other cases they may actually be altering the voltages to offer an "alternative" tone (subjectively one they think is better).

The other part of their market is trying to offer the best copies of vintage designs with modern materials and high consistency. I've not had any direct experience with the above, but this is where I've found the best value.

Another thing they offer is unique transformers you won't find on any vintage amps or modern designs. They are meant to be more of a general purpose tool for boutique builders who are building one-off stuff. Over time if you develop a design with them, it then may become your OEM design. When you have a working relationship with them they are willing to make winding changes to existing cores for little or no extra charge because it's relatively easy to do, so you can custom tailor your own designs to what you want. But it really comes down to how much labor change and engineering time you consume - none of that being free.

[g1]

Is it really a lie if you believe it?

Yes, placebo effect is real. And it's doesn't change the snake oil part.
As far as I know, no other transformer manufacturers are actively promoting the 'upgrade' of amps that are working just fine. You have not countered that point so I assume we are in agreement there.
That is what much of this thread is about, not the quality of their product, which is what Chuck H already mentioned above.

I have to be blunt and ask now, as an amp repairer/tinkerer/builder are there no other threads here of interest to you? Because it's starting to seem like you may have just joined up to shill for MM. I hope that is not the case, but it would not be the first time something like that happened around here.

[Mike K]

Yes, placebo effect is real. And it's doesn't change the snake oil part.
As far as I know, no other transformer manufacturers are actively promoting the 'upgrade' of amps that are working just fine. You have not countered that point so I assume we are in agreement there.
That is what much of this thread is about, not the quality of their product, which is what Chuck H already mentioned above.

I have to be blunt and ask now, as an amp repairer/tinkerer/builder are there no other threads here of interest to you? Because it's starting to seem like you may have just joined up to shill for MM. I hope that is not the case, but it would not be the first time something like that happened around here.

I think you should read my entire post instead of just cherry picking and quoting what you want. Also maybe go back and read some others, that should calm your worries and quell your accusations.


But to answer, no - there's likely not much here I haven't read or seen. I might stick around, but really the attitude of this thread doesn't give me a good taste, and like I say, this isn't my first rodeo. Not sure I really need to waste my time on an internet forum.

Anyway - my point was not to compare other transformer winders, but the entire music industry. What has MM done that is any different than in terms of pickups? How many "perfectly functional" pickups are removed and sold from OEM guitars. I think you're just being closed minded. My argument is that they saw something you didn't, and used it to their market advantage. And maybe that's how they can stay in business and still hand build everything. You don't have to like it, but it seems you may not understand it. Again, I take from that company what I feel they offer a builder (I'm not really the others - I don't repair many amps nor do I tinker much with existing production amps), because that's what my hobby has been.


FYI - I came across this thread searching: "Is Mercury Magnetics still in business?" in Google. Try it, it's a bit down, but it'll probably come up. I mentioned earlier I haven't bought anything from them recently and although their website is up, they don't update Facebook anymore, so I was curious if I could still get them. I had a guy contact me earlier in the week about an amp and I wanted to see what my options were.

Anyway, I'm surprised at these type of "bashing" threads. I used to see them 10+ years ago, almost exactly the same. And it was always from people who had no real direct experience with the products. I always wondered why that was. I also always wondered if my perception of these things is correct - like I say, I've spent a lot of time and money in building and testing stuff but I'll be quite honest, I'm also not a successful builder. I've tried to have a go at it, but it's a tough gig. I've been building my own equipment for 15 or so years and I found myself unemployed about 5 years ago so I decided to give it a go. Had very little success. But I haven't given up and I still have a local guy who carries the dream, has me build stuff for him and stuff he tries to sell on Reverb. But the amount of money I've made in it wouldn't be enough to cover a month of groceries. So I've decided for it to mainly be a hobby.

[tedmich]

Mike people here are just sharing their truth, just as you are . THE truth is only claimed in religions, cults and (ahem) many advertising campaigns. Saying your product is magical great and will transform the way an amp SOUNDS is really only tenable for speaker Mfg, IMHO.
Any such claims by people marketing the following:

1. capacitors
2. cables
3. transformers (power, interstage OR output)
4. chokes
5. solder
6. etc.

require extreme proof, which is NEVER forthcoming IME.

As for transformers I use and appreciate Antek for PTs (CHEEP) and Edcor for both PT and OTs (a little less)

[Mike K]

Ted - My point previously is THEY *think* they are better. They try to improve a product and believe they have. Is their claim false?

I have CERTAINLY made measurable differences in output transformers. You can choose to believe that or not. I believe even on this thread there was a sound test in which people could hear a difference. Maybe it was small, but often, in real life it can be really big - like big difference in VOLUME response (dynamics) and high end or low end response (thickness or brightness) and/or resonances. I don't think those things are fake. If you haven't tried, then I'll say you're a hypocrite, because you're preaching some truth based on something you haven't actually experienced (all too common on internet forums).

[pdf64]

I like the PTs over Hammond, for instance, because they actually use more iron and never get even slightly warm to the touch when kept within the limits …

Mains transformers designed in the days when valve rectification was common, or (competently) designed for use with valve rectifiers more recently, should get hot in use. It’s not a flaw, the opposite really, it shows that the HT winding incorporates a degree of resistance, which is required by a valve rectifier. If it wasn’t designed in, external resistors would need to be added, to comply with peak anode current limits drawn in the reservoir cap charging cycle.

[catalin gramada]

Mains transformers designed in the days when valve rectification was common, or (competently) designed for use with valve rectifiers more recently, should get hot in use. It’s not a flaw, the opposite really, it shows that the HT winding incorporates a degree of resistance, which is required by a valve rectifier. If it wasn’t designed in, external resistors would need to be added, to comply with peak anode current limits drawn in the reservoir cap charging cycle.

That.s strange as many of the hottest commercial main transformers I found get hot by the iron whilst the coil seems cool. A 5-10 percent "regulation" meant a proper designed wire gauge for the nominal current.

[Helmholtz]

A well designed PT has equal core and copper losses at rated load..
As core losses don't change with load that means that at idle or without load core losses dominate.

It is possible that MM uses higher grade core steel to lower core loss.
Higher permeability steel also allows to use less wire turns and a larger wire cross section (for a given winding space), so also copper losses can be lowered.