Rawcabs!

[Chuck H]

Maple doesn't stain especially well either. I usually use a stain controller with maple. It evens out the affect but limits the penetration of the color. It can be a little blotchy otherwise. Much better than pine though. Pine is really not a stainable wood. The natural grain streaks vanish in the presence of heavy color in the softest parts of the lighter wood and the darker wood only stains a little in the lightest areas. It really does end up looking "stained" rather than stained. And some stains are better than others. Lacquer based stains tend to be dye based while oil stains tend to be pigment and/or dye based. Seeing the samples on oak slabs at the hardware store doesn't really tell you much about what will happen on alder. The last time I stained alder I used food coloring and denatured alcohol blended with a little shellac as a binder. It came out pretty well so I'll have to say that my one experience staining alder went alright.

Figured woods, like curly maple and such are a different story. Most of the grain anomalies actually look GOOD accentuated. It's on lightly figured soft woods that stain is a problem and it's usually better to use tinted finish coats. In other words, regarding stain results, YMMV.

Interesting that you chose green! It might be the least popular stain color for fine finishing, though I've always liked it. I had a Fender Esprit (rare and now collectible because of Larry Carlton I suppose) that had a green finish over maple. Most likely tinted color coats, but I liked the look.

[The Dude]

I think I still have a partial bottle of the stuff I used at home. I'll see if I can find it so we know what we're talking about. It was quite some time ago that I used it, but I recall it comes in a powder form that's mixed with water- then applied like stain. It worked quite well. I got it from a drum shop online somewhere. I don't recall where.

Oh, I HATE green. At the time this drum kit and guitar were dyed, a drummer buddy and I were playing with a comedy duo. They dubbed the band "The Split Pea Band". Partially as a joke, and partially because the drum and guitar finishes were shot, we decided that, if we were going to be "Peas", we should have green instruments. I even made a custom pea pickguard for the guitar, and a pea drum head for the kick. There were quite a few laughs the first time we showed up with the freshly "greened" instruments. I'll try to remember to shoot some pics tonight and post 'em tomorrow.

[Justin Thomas]

I always use the aniline dyes on all my wood projects... stain is too common! So far I did flame maple in blue, raw ash in emerald green, and pine in purple. Next one, I think I'll do in either red or yellow, since the buyer has officially backed out. This one is lightly flamed pine outer shell with sorta-birdseye-figured poplar for the front panel. I don't aim for mirror-perfect cuz I'm impatient, and I tend to not be very gentle with my stuff, but I love the rich colors. I always do black first then sand it down (except on pine), and have been happy with the results.

I was going to try to make a cab out of some figured cedar, but it's too oily and would have been full of "ventilation holes..."

Justin

[Chuck H]

I always do black first then sand it down (except on pine), and have been happy with the results.

I'm interested! Is this to pre stain the soft wood and pores? Accenting any figuring? Is this a common technique in instrument finishing? I'm a painter, but not a "guitar painter" (though I have finished guitars) and I haven't heard about this technique.

[Justin Thomas]

Hey Chuck,

The black first is soaked into the wood at different rates based on the hardness (in the case of maple) or into the grain lines (for ash). When you sand it back, the black stays in some parts of the wood (I can't remember whether the harder or softer) or it's left in the deep grain lines. It's basically a way of improving the contrast in any figure, or accentuating the grain. Then you go over the thing again withe your color. I read about it on the ReRanch.com website after feeling inspired after picking up the PRS guitar book.

The one time I tried it on pine, it didn't really work, because it wasn't figured at all. But, it's easy enough to sand down to bare wood... the pine cab shell for my last build, though, has a very broad waviness to it, so I'm willing to try again. The poplar has more pronounced grain lines and also some birdseye; it's very inconsistent, but I don't mind that. What many see as flaws I see as character. I think I spent two hours at Lowes picking out the two boards I used to make this cab...

Justin

[Chuck H]

Poplar can be tricky because it's soft and sometimes has green streaks. Hard to get that classic natural wood look. But selected pieces can clear finish quite nicely. My personal combo amp is poplar selected for "no green colored patches". Just sanding sealer and urethane. I like it. It's darkened a little over the last eight years and looks even better for it.

[tbonuss]

Well, I'm ancient. The internet has certainly changed what "easy access" means. Even so, my experience ordering things on line for specific things like this is that it often turns out close, but not really what I wanted Then refinements mean more ordering and waiting, shipping charges, finding alternative vendors with the "other" thing, etc. Too frustrating.

Thanks Chuck! So I guess the dye mixes are just fine then. It really seemed like I was mixing cherry Kool Aid really strong. I do live by a major Amazon distribution center, so its actually easier for me to just double click and then send it back if I don't like it. Occasionally, Prime orders get here in less than 12 hours. I guess since I don't always know exactly what I want, I'm less discerning than a real professional, and it "seems fine to me" where it wouldn't to someone with more exacting standards / expectations.

[Justin Thomas]

I think I was using Tulip Poplar, which is usually straight-grained, and splits ridiculously easily, but what a bitch to drill it was! I decided to use small clusters of different-sized holes as "peepholes" to see the tubes and help with airflow. I killed several smaller bits. The back panel, I just used three large 1" holes, and those three holes killed my friend's unibits. Granted, they weren't the sharpest, but I figured, "poplar, it's pretty soft, no problem..." Wrong! The piece I got is all yellow, so no green bits. But the back panel has the greenish tint, but it wasn't streaked.

I use the alcohol-soluble aniline dyes, because, hooray for flammable chemicals! And I recall many saying the colors were "brighter" than water-based. And, you only need the 3 primary colors; black is easily made of all three.

I guess about 15 years ago, I got the PRS book w. all the color pictures and was hooked on refinishing. Anything new is fair game, and I don't feel like learning to tolex. I like the fact that I can make a very colorful and bright amp cab, without having to cover it in plastic. And not being obsessed over perfect mirror-finishes, I'll do plywood, laminate, whatever. I don't see myself returning to "conventional" finishing again, except for the clearcoat. Spray lacquer in a can works for me! I ain't making fine furniture...

My '67 Mustang Bass is safe, even though it's checked to hell and back and chipping like mad. Has a Brazilian board, too...

Justin

[Chuck H]

Hey Justin, I looked up the "black first" thing and immediately recognized the technique, though I've never used it. It seems most suited to highly figured woods, curly or quilted or woods that exhibit pronounced, but even delineation between hard and soft grain. And it looks VERY striking.

I also just remembered a project I did a couple of decades ago that I needed a special effect for. I found some leather dye (alcohol based) at a leather shop for that. Unfortunately and like most other craft/hobby shops there aren't many around anymore. But I like the idea of the KoolAid!!! Most things that are water soluble are also alcohol soluble. You could add a little shellac as a binder. It's the same idea as the food color dyes I've used. One serious caution though. If you go with really clean colors and don't use a finish with some opacity (most urethanes have a little opacity) there is the risk of UV fade. I've seen it happen to some guitars. Anybody know the "unburst" Les Pauls? A term applied by collectors. The Cherry sunburst guitars from the 50's/60's were so poor in color retention that unless you keep them in the case and never play them outside they can literally fade away completely!

IIRC, when I was doing the project for which I used the leather dye I was first looking at the old RIT fabric dye. I remember thinking it might be doable, but I have never actually tried it. I wonder if you can still get that stuff at drug stores and fabric stores?!?

I'd avoid water based dyes whenever possible. My own experience as a painter, and more directly related to this matter, with the artificial aging using a water and lye solution demonstrated that using any water saturating product badly swells and raises the grain of the wood. As this relates to dyes, you can't simply sand down the raised grain without damage to the effect. So successive coats are needed to raise the finish level to where it can be sanded down smooth without damaging the dye. A real PITA. Everything will raise wood grain a little, but water is the worst. Stick with alcohol whenever you can.

That's some of my experiences on the matter.

[TimmyP1955]

A shop that specializes in hardwoods and woodworking tools will likely have the dyes and finishes that hardware and home stores do not. There used to be one just 2 miles from my house, but....

I did a shotgun stock with blood red dye - I don't remember what I used for the clear coat. It was a bit darker than a Gibson SG - the color really popped in the sunlight.

[Chuck H]

A shop that specializes in hardwoods and woodworking tools will likely have the dyes and finishes that hardware and home stores do not. There used to be one just 2 miles from my house, but....

I did a shotgun stock with blood red dye - I don't remember what I used for the clear coat. It was a bit darker than a Gibson SG - the color really popped in the sunlight.

I don't know how many exotic lumber specialty stores are around anymore. I watched them drop like flies in the San Jose area of California with the rise of the internet. Southern Lumber was the last one I visited and I don't know if they're still around. Walking through their exotic wood aisles was super cool. I was purchasing some wood for a bowie knife handle. End grain zebra wood. Match booked and dyed orange (also with food dyes, alcohol and shellac). The extreme dark striping gave the same striking effect as Justin's "black first" technique. Nothing like that here on Whidbey for sure. If there was I'd be a total "shop rat". Getting to know all the guys there and rarely buying anything

[The Dude]

Not much good news here. I couldn't find the dye I used in what little time I had last night. I'll do a little more digging when I get time. I snapped some pics last night as promised, but after looking at them on a larger computer screen, they didn't turn out so good- blurry and full of shadows. The pics really don't do these justice. The guitar looks blotchy in the pics, but it's really not. That's mostly shadows except for the obvious joints. It's a cheap squire-whadda ya expect? This particular guitar is intentionally whacky and a tool- not a show piece. And then there's the blurry pic of the drum............

[Justin Thomas]

I can tell the blotchiness comes from the variations in the wood hardness. It could VERY loosely be called "figure." No wood is ever THAT perfect as to avoid some of that when using a transparent finish. If you hold the guitar in the light and turn it any which way, the light and dark areas should "switch." And it's the subtle movements in a highly figured piece of wood that's been clear-coated that REALLY makes it "pop."

Justin

[Chuck H]

Yeah, I'm with Justin. I think they look pretty good. Less blotchy that I thought they would. This was a waterborne stain? Good work getting the finishes smooth without messing up the color.

The bigger question... Where did you find a peas pick guard?

[The Dude]

I'm still going to try to find the bottle of stuff I used, but yes it was a powder mixed with water. I didn't saturate the wood when it was applied- sort of rubbed it in.

I made the peas pick guard out of some clear Lexan. Then I put the graphics together on the PC, printed them off on gloss photographic paper, and glued the photo on the backside of the Lexan with a clear drying glue. I have done some via airbrushing the backside and it looks much better and lasts longer. But, it's tricky because you have to think backwards- foreground first then background. Printing is much easier and I've only had to redo it once after a "White Russian Incident".