P12R's don't last?

[flatfive]

Say it isn't so. I have an organ pull P12R in my 5E3 and it's close to perfect for my style of playing. Come to find out that these speakers blow pretty easily.

So, I should just use it up and go find another one? Recone? I could try a vintage P12Q, but will I like it? What's your exerience?

[txstrat]

I'd say it depends on your taste. The P12Q is just higher in wattage but should sound very similar except of not breaking up that fast.
I even heard some guy lately who liked the C series (i.e. C12Q, C12N) more than the P.

[flatfive]

This forum has gotten pretty quiet.

[billyz]

I have a 1957 Deluxe with a P12Q and everyone thinks it is the best sounding Tweed Deluxe they ever heard. The P12Q is a better speaker than the R . It will hold up too. I have tried many speakers in my original 5e3, celestions,Vox silver alnico, Altecs, EV,JBL, The old P12Q jensen is the best I have ever heard in a Tweed Deluxe.

Although, I recently heard an Austin Speaker Works alnico and it was very intriguing. I did not try it in my Deluxe, yet. The speaker was a prototype called the "Absolute". It sounded better than anything new I have used.

I am currently building an amp with this speaker.

[flatfive]

Thanks, billyz.

I'm bidding on a '60 P12Q right now and plan to try it out soon.

[soundmasterg]

When did Fender stick the P12Q in as standard in the 5E3?

I've got a 1956 5E3 that was missing the original speaker so I ran a Weber 12A150 (P12N) in it for awhile until I put in a reconed 1956 P12R. I like the P12R better than the P12N, but haven't heard a P12Q yet. I think the P12R is correct for my year 5E3 however.

Greg

[pdf64]

The original P12R is only rated at 12 watts, a cranked 5E3 will do more than that. The glues in a 40+ year old speaker will be failing, the coil former in my 60s P12R was becoming detached from the cone. I managed to repair it with some rubberised super glue.
For reliability it would be best to get weber to recone your P12R, or buy their remake of it. They have several different cone types. P12R have got a unique sound, probably due to having such a small magnet. Peter.

[vjf]

billyz have you tried a new Jensen C12Q, if so, what were your thoughts?

I'm going to be building a Mission 5E3 kit this fall and I'm still undecided between a Jensen P12Q or C12Q (new Jensens not orignals)

[billyz]

As for the originality of a P12Q in a Tweed Deluxe, I know they usually had a P12R. I have heard of others with the P12Q. I bought mine in the 70's from a pawn shop for $25 and that is what it had in it. But, It might have been replaced earlier. Sound wise it has always been the best. I have owned about 6 narrow panel tweed deluxes and a few wide panels. I have worked on many more. All of them had the P12R.

I have not tried the Italian Jensen C12Q, But I have used The C12N and in a Pro or Twinn Reverb they are good. Not as nice as an original C12N, but for the money, I would use them. Also, I have an Italian C10Q in a Princeton Reverb and I like it well enough. It is a little tight sounding and a bit harsh compared to the originals, but , again for the money, ok.

If you like a tighter more focused sound then you might like the Ceramics. I you like more chime and warmer mids, a bit of compression, then the Alnico is what you want.

Also, It must be original , not reconed. Modern cones and voice coils change the sound alot. might as well buy a new speaker like Weber.

[flatfive]

Rubberized super glue? Is there such a thing? I'll probably just play the thing until it breaks, then see how a recone works.

[billyz]

Yes, There is such a thing as Rubberized Super Glue. And It is recommended for speaker recones. It can be a little difficult to find though. I generally use some 5 minute epoxy, just the tinniest amount. I have repaired many old speakers. Small tears in the cone, loose spiders, cracked surrounds, loose dust caps, can all be repaired without reconing and greatly extend the life of your speaker. In the olden times we used fingernail polish to fix alot of speakers.

[soundmasterg]

As for the originality of a P12Q in a Tweed Deluxe, I know they usually had a P12R. I have heard of others with the P12Q. I bought mine in the 70's from a pawn shop for $25 and that is what it had in it. But, It might have been replaced earlier. Sound wise it has always been the best. I have owned about 6 narrow panel tweed deluxes and a few wide panels. I have worked on many more. All of them had the P12R.

I have not tried the Italian Jensen C12Q, But I have used The C12N and in a Pro or Twinn Reverb they are good. Not as nice as an original C12N, but for the money, I would use them. Also, I have an Italian C10Q in a Princeton Reverb and I like it well enough. It is a little tight sounding and a bit harsh compared to the originals, but , again for the money, ok.

If you like a tighter more focused sound then you might like the Ceramics. I you like more chime and warmer mids, a bit of compression, then the Alnico is what you want.

Also, It must be original , not reconed. Modern cones and voice coils change the sound alot. might as well buy a new speaker like Weber.

Thanks for the info Billy! I had heard that the later years of the tweed deluxe came with the P12Q but it wasn't anything concrete. Having a P12R in there, even if it is reconced sounds WAY better than the ratshack speaker that came with it, and sounds more balanced than the Weber 12A150 was in that amp. It sounds like a P12Q might be a good choice too, or the Weber equvilant perhaps. My P12R was reconed with an original Jensen recone kit so perhaps its a bit closer than your run of the mill one that would have been reconed with a generic kit. The big part is that since the speaker is from 1956, the numbers check out with what it should have, so it will help value if I ever decide to sell it....though I doubt that will happen.

Greg

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

5E3 amps and speaker choices

If you are going for a Fendery Alnico sound, I'd use the vintage P12Q.
They sound pretty darn good and my second choice for a classic 5E3.
My first pick goes to the Celestion Blue, the VOXY, Alnico Bull Dog clone like speaker.

However, a reissue P12Q is not a bad choice either, but SICA didn't pick the correct P12Q as their model so it is not a true Alnico 5, P12Q clone.

Regardless, a good condition, vintage P12Q sounds a bit better then the reissue, especially before the reissue breaks in.

On another note, Hint:
the reissue C12Q speaker is actually a really good, low cost speaker and much maligned for no real good reason.
Yes they are a little bright when new but most 5E3 amps cab be slightly dull when played loudly and a good sounding 5E3s are set up to be a little bright, having better dynamic response when used with a bright speaker.

Reissue C12Q:
Here's a couple tricks I do when using a new C12Q...
In a well ventilated room or outside, ...with the speaker sitting out of the cabinet, I run a 60HZ, 12vac @ 1amp filament transformer) with speaker leads attached) right into the speaker lugs for about a half an hour.
But, before turning the juice on to the speaker, use a paint brush and apply a wet layer of acetone all around the cone paper at the ribbed suspension (near the metal basket) and down the cone towards the voice coil dust cover... but DO NOT soak the dust cover as it can come off!
A couple-three applications of this method during this 30min break-in really makes a decent, inexpensive speaker loosen up quickly, becoming less boxy and blossom into a very good sounding speaker in short order.

NOTE:
Be careful to always shut the power off when doing the acetone application and don't pull the leads on and off while under power because any spark could ignite the fumes and or the speaker cone!
Fire BAD, great tone GOOD!

[flatfive]

Bruce:

Would that work with a Vintage 30? I have one in one of my deluxes and I'd like to be able to use it. Right now it's just taking up space in the amp until I get a vintage P12Q.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

"Bruce:

Would that work with a Vintage 30? I have one in one of my deluxes and I'd like to be able to use it.
Right now it's just taking up space in the amp until I get a vintage P12Q."
**************************************


Yes but not as well as it does with the reissue Jensen speakers.

Also, the V30 has four mounting holes not 8 like a Jensen. Plus, the V30 is really heavy and has a moderately strong tendency to weigh down the thin baffle board of a tweed cabinet.
When that happens the steel basket tries to partially drive the thin baffle board out of phase with the cone, absorbing some of the sound energy.
Newton's Law.
So, I try to avoid heavy speakers in these amps.
However, and there always seems to be a however....you can stiffen the thinner tweed baffle by mounting 6" to 8" long 7/8"x3/4", vertical cleats on the inside left and right sides of the cabinet, next to the baffle.
Then, using some small length wood screws to "draw" the baffle board to the new cleats, you can substantially stiffen up the baffle board making a heavy speaker drive it's cone harder and the tweed amp using heavy ceramic speakers do sound better to me this way.