Has anyone built a 5E3X2?

[scottb1966]

I have built a Mission 5E3 and I love it. I would just like it to be a little louder. I am wondering if anybody has had any experience with a 5E3X2 (4 6V6's) good or bad.

Weber makes a kit, does anybody else?

[tubeswell]

I haven't built one yet, but something like that is on my to-do list. The only reason I can see for doing it tho' is to have a louder 5E3. And 5E3 is pretty loud anyhow, so I dunno.

[scottb1966]

Like I said, I love my Mission 5E3 but I have played it a couple of times in a crowded steakhouse/bar and have had to mic it both times. I was running the Bright channel and had the volume on 12 and the normal on 8 and people in the back couldn't hear me without the mic.

Just want something that sounds just like mine, but louder!

[Tom Phillips]

Note that twice the power is truly "just a little louder".
There is a good chance that you would still need to mic it.
It takes a ten times increase in sound pressure level to be perceived as twice as loud.

One thing to consider is a more efficient speaker. That can net you more acoustic energy than the power amp increase. Success with this approach depends on several things such as the before and after speakers and the ability to maintain the tone you like after a speaker change.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers,
Tom

[cminor9]

Like I said, I love my Mission 5E3 but I have played it a couple of times in a crowded steakhouse/bar and have had to mic it both times. I was running the Bright channel and had the volume on 12 and the normal on 8 and people in the back couldn't hear me without the mic.

Just want something that sounds just like mine, but louder!

I'd change the speaker first. I run my 5E3 through a weber blue dog (ceramic magnet) and would heartily recommend it. That is apparently a sensitive speaker (stating that based on the fact it is based on the Celestion Blue, which is a very efficient speaker according to the specs I have read.) You could also plug into an extension cab. That's another 12" speaker to move some air. Another good suggestion is to get that thing off the ground. Put it in a chair (or on top of an extension cab ). It'll seem louder to you, and it might project a bit better. Could it be that you aren't having volume problems, but rather you are having trouble cutting through the mix? If you are running the stock .1 coupling caps, that could certainly be a possibility. Change them to .02 and you'll cut through MUCH better. One more idea: I have heard that the 5F4/5E5/5E7 is pretty similar. Looking at the circuit, it looks to be very similar except more wattage. Me, I want to build a 5F4!

Now, something I am dying to ask you. Based on my experience with my 5E3 through that speaker, I am always puzzled when I read posts like this (I always come across archived threads like this, talking about how a 5E3 isn't gig worthy). I usually have trouble getting the nice singing OD at volumes that are gig appropriate. Turning the amp up to 3/4 and opening the guitar's volume pot makes me sound like *that* guitar player...you know, the guy who wants to be louder than the entire band. You don't wanna be that guy. I mean, there is something visceral and fun about really playing loudly. I have played some rather large outdoor gigs with my 5E3 (not large as in thousands of people, but in that I had to project the music to a relatively large area.) Then and only then have I really been able to open it up.

Please don't take me the wrong way, I am really interested in your opinion on this: Most of us who gig occasionally or are actual working musicians (read: making a living at it) aren't playing somewhere with our name in lights. So while people certainly enjoy listening to us, they aren't usually coming just to see us. They are out with friends, etc, and want to have a meal, some drinks, and conversation, and face it, the music is just nice background. To me, playing a 5E3 at full tilt for most gigs of this nature (not in huge concert halls, not playing something that just needs to be loud like punk, etc) is too much. If people cannot hold a conversation without shouting, then we are too loud. That's been my experience and obviously my opinion. When you play out, do you take the same approach? Or does the place you play at encourage you to play loud? Do you have a loud drummer? Or is your 5E3 just really that quiet? I wonder.

It could boil down to the speaker choice here making a night and day difference between too loud and too soft. You would be in a good position to figure that out by trying a diff speaker or cab with the amp I'd be very curious to know how that works for you if you try it.

[hasserl]

I've built one, it kicks ass! I did make a few changes, including going with a single 15 instead of two 12's; and a couple of circuit changes to tweak the tone to my tastes. But you could build one perfectly stock and it would still kick ass. It's just everything you like about a 5E3, but more of it. What's not to like?

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

5E3X2 Origins....


Many years ago, (probably early to mid 1993 0r 1994) I decided to build a 2x12 narrow panel, low power tweed Twin for a blues player friend of mine...but with four cathode biased 6V6s and two P12Qs.... blah blah blah... It sounded really good/nice but a bit too polite.
As I was working with this platform, I had this brain storm idea to just rewire the whole frickin' thing as a high power tweed Deluxe but with four 6V6s and a 5U4 rectifier. I was very happy with this one even though it only made about 22-24 watts.
I think the very first time I let someone else try it live at a gig, I was amazed and giddy at how good it sounded off stage and how it was easily twice as loud as my stock 5E3 amp yet fully tweed D'luxish.
Great singing, buesy sustain and overdrive when cranked up.
This amp was re-wrapped and part of my Bluestone/Soulkicker amps...but I always called it the 5E3X2.
The X2 only meant; twice the power and twice the speakers.
I don't know if Victoria was making something like this or not back then.

Any how, it was a few years later (when working on beta testing and tweaking lots of stuff for T Weber, God rest his soul), he asked me (and many others) if we had any ideas for some new amps he could market and I mentioned the 5F2H harp amp and the venerable 5E3X2 (he liked those nomenclatures the best and it appears to have stuck... they still use the 5F2H and 5E3X2 names even though they seemed to have removed any reference to me or Mission Amps from their website).
We went through a few prototypes and all that rot... he wanted to use all the inexpensive Chinese transformers and parts they were just getting into... Ron Veil, Uncle Spot webpage (Uncle Spot) and I had been giving Weber real vintage tranny data and beta testing/critiquing the inexpensive Chinese transformers, We made lots of suggestions for the trannys.
I didn't really want to use the Chinese parts but I went along with it for a while.
My custom wound "DHV" (Dual High Voltage) trannys were always made with a lower voltage Hi-Vac tap set in conjunction with higher voltage taps sets so any of my the amps could be built to run two KT66s, two 6L6s, two EL34s, four 6V6s, two 6V6s or two El84s... and with fixed or cathode biasing.
After messing around too long with the goofs and mediocre Chinese trannys, Weber simply asked to use both of my custom made Heyboer or TMI, "DHV" power tranny specs for a real time model to send the Chinese and although they never really got them 100% right, they were probably good enough for about +90% of most home brewers and their amp projects.
I think they still sell them made this way but with a multi tap 110v-240v primary windings.
Side note: The WSE15 OT, at one time, was a copy of my Hammond +15 watt SE OT used for the 5F2H, my SE KT66 Harp amp.. no idea if it still is.

So, just in case someone runs into one, all the 5E3X2s I've ever built and sold did use a Weber tweed Chassis' but were made with top of the line TMI, Lenco or Heyboer power and output trannys, Switchcraft jacks, Carling switches, full size 3/8" bushing Alpha or CTS pots of the day, old AB 1 watt carbon comp or new carbon film resistors and Sprague E-caps, etc.
In the beginning, I did use a bunch of Illinois Polypropylene coupling caps, which to this day I still think are very good, but eventually went over to standard Mallory 400v and 630v 150s.

I still think the 5E3X2 is a club sized, giggle, fun amp
and with a couple sensitive 12" speakers at +100dB per watt... WOW... loud and great sounding with a Tele, a Strat or anything with P90s.
Personally I don't like them as much with humbucker guitars but the 5E3X2 can be easily tuned for those guitars too... and I have done so.

[scottb1966]

I'd change the speaker first. I run my 5E3 through a weber blue dog (ceramic magnet) and would heartily recommend it. That is apparently a sensitive speaker (stating that based on the fact it is based on the Celestion Blue, which is a very efficient speaker according to the specs I have read.) You could also plug into an extension cab. That's another 12" speaker to move some air. Another good suggestion is to get that thing off the ground. Put it in a chair (or on top of an extension cab ). It'll seem louder to you, and it might project a bit better. Could it be that you aren't having volume problems, but rather you are having trouble cutting through the mix? If you are running the stock .1 coupling caps, that could certainly be a possibility. Change them to .02 and you'll cut through MUCH better. One more idea: I have heard that the 5F4/5E5/5E7 is pretty similar. Looking at the circuit, it looks to be very similar except more wattage. Me, I want to build a 5F4!

Now, something I am dying to ask you. Based on my experience with my 5E3 through that speaker, I am always puzzled when I read posts like this (I always come across archived threads like this, talking about how a 5E3 isn't gig worthy). I usually have trouble getting the nice singing OD at volumes that are gig appropriate. Turning the amp up to 3/4 and opening the guitar's volume pot makes me sound like *that* guitar player...you know, the guy who wants to be louder than the entire band. You don't wanna be that guy. I mean, there is something visceral and fun about really playing loudly. I have played some rather large outdoor gigs with my 5E3 (not large as in thousands of people, but in that I had to project the music to a relatively large area.) Then and only then have I really been able to open it up.

Please don't take me the wrong way, I am really interested in your opinion on this: Most of us who gig occasionally or are actual working musicians (read: making a living at it) aren't playing somewhere with our name in lights. So while people certainly enjoy listening to us, they aren't usually coming just to see us. They are out with friends, etc, and want to have a meal, some drinks, and conversation, and face it, the music is just nice background. To me, playing a 5E3 at full tilt for most gigs of this nature (not in huge concert halls, not playing something that just needs to be loud like punk, etc) is too much. If people cannot hold a conversation without shouting, then we are too loud. That's been my experience and obviously my opinion. When you play out, do you take the same approach? Or does the place you play at encourage you to play loud? Do you have a loud drummer? Or is your 5E3 just really that quiet? I wonder.

It could boil down to the speaker choice here making a night and day difference between too loud and too soft. You would be in a good position to figure that out by trying a diff speaker or cab with the amp I'd be very curious to know how that works for you if you try it.

Okay first, the speaker I had in it was a Weber 12A125-O. I did have it setting on the floor. It was loud enough for me, we were doing a 3 piece most of the time, just guitar, bass and drums. I don't know if all 5E3's are like mine, but there is not much difference in volume between 3 and 12, 12 is just dirtier.

It was a crowded room and the first time I played it my friends about 2/3's of the way back in the room said that the couldn't hear me. Later the man running the blues jam wanted me to switch amps because it wasn't loud enough.

The next time I played it, I mic'd it from the start. Just so happens I have a clip and you can decide if it was too loud. I'm the big one playing the Dot! (Be kind)
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4hMpHz6L0Y"]YouTube - Nick Williams-Eric Albany-Scott Barbour jam on some fast blues[/ame]

Now back to the speakers. My Weber started making a rattling/grinding sound up above the 10th fret on the high strings. So I sent it back to Weber (they still have it) and bought a Celestion Blue. It sounds great but not really any louder than the Weber.

Now what really got me thinking about a 5E3X2 was when I looked at the cost of a 5E3X2 cabinet. I thought since I am going to have 2 nice speakers, I could run the my 5E3 through both of them. Well just the cabinet is $255 and I can get the whole kit, cabinet and all for $565. Since I have been wanting to build another amp since the Mission, I thought, this might be a good idea!

And one more thing, the amp is bone stock and I love the way humbuckers sound through it.

That's my story..

[cminor9]

hey there scottb1966, I thought you sounded pretty good there (tone-wise and playing). In fact, you run just about the same setup I run (burstbuckers in the dot, not the stock pups)

I guess the guy behind you with the marshall half stack (!) and the bass player with the big honkin hartke bass cab are too much for a 5E3 to keep up with. Do they seriously lug all that gear around for bar type gigs? Man!

I went to go see the Bottle Rockets the other night, and oddly enough...the singer/guitar player was talking about a tiny place he plays sometimes, and how he needs a really loud amp because the people are packed in so tight they absorb all the sound. Most of the places I have played have been rather larger areas (or my basement) so there is some natural reverb going on there. So I guess it's like anything else, different tools for different jobs.

At any rate, if you are playing with guys who are playing too loud for a 5E3, hope you're wearing some earplugs!

[scottb1966]

hey there scottb1966, I thought you sounded pretty good there (tone-wise and playing). In fact, you run just about the same setup I run (burstbuckers in the dot, not the stock pups)

I guess the guy behind you with the marshall half stack (!) and the bass player with the big honkin hartke bass cab are too much for a 5E3 to keep up with. Do they seriously lug all that gear around for bar type gigs? Man!

I went to go see the Bottle Rockets the other night, and oddly enough...the singer/guitar player was talking about a tiny place he plays sometimes, and how he needs a really loud amp because the people are packed in so tight they absorb all the sound. Most of the places I have played have been rather larger areas (or my basement) so there is some natural reverb going on there. So I guess it's like anything else, different tools for different jobs.

At any rate, if you are playing with guys who are playing too loud for a 5E3, hope you're wearing some earplugs!

My dot has GFS humbuckers in it. I think they are called classic 59's or something. As for the rest of the gear, the bass cabinet is always there, we didn't bring it. The club may own it. As for the Marshall, somebody brought it but not the boy that was playing it.

The room is usually pretty crowded so I think that is part of the problem.

Thanks

[unparalleled]

Like I said, I love my Mission 5E3 but I have played it a couple of times in a crowded steakhouse/bar and have had to mic it both times. I was running the Bright channel and had the volume on 12 and the normal on 8 and people in the back couldn't hear me without the mic.

Just want something that sounds just like mine, but louder!

Just a few thoughts:
Try taking advantage of the room you perform in to increase sound level.
To get a 3dB increase ( twice the sound level) place your speaker with it's back against a wall which the audience faces .
To get a 6dB increase (twice what the first set up does) place your speaker with it's back into a corner of the room which the audience is facing.
This is known as the boundary effect *.
*Try Google?
To double the SPL (sound level) the expensive way you need to square the power, ie: for a 10 Watt amp :- 10w x10w = 100w.
This can become expensive, another 3db (double again) 100w x 100w = 1000Watts.

An extra extension speaker could also solve your problem.

[Diablo]

This amp was re-wrapped and part of my Bluestone/Soulkicker amps...but I always called it the 5E3X2.
My custom wound "DHV" (Dual High Voltage) trannys were always made with a lower voltage Hi-Vac tap set in conjunction with higher voltage taps sets so any of my the amps could be built to run two KT66s, two 6L6s, two EL34s, four 6V6s, two 6V6s or two El84s... and with fixed or cathode biasing.
After messing around too long with the goofs and mediocre Chinese trannys, Weber simply asked to use both of my custom made Heyboer or TMI, "DHV" power tranny specs for a real time model to send the Chinese and although they never really got them 100% right, they were probably good enough for about +90% of most home brewers and their amp projects.
I think they still sell them made this way but with a multi tap 110v-240v primary windings.

Say Bruce, I sent you a PM asking some questions, but I might as well ask here so that others might benefit too. What are the specs for your custom wound DHV PT? Do you sell that PT to folks that want to build the 5E3X2? Which voltage taps are used for the 5E3X2, and what plate voltage are you shooting for? The Weber kit includes the W022798 PT with 720V and 660V taps. Is your DHV PT about the same (voltage wise)? Do you sell a good OT for the 5E3X2? Weber's kit includes the W40428 OT, and would like to know if your OT is about the same size, and if you can compare them?
Thanks in advance.

[hasserl]

Seems to me that you're cutting thru just fine (sounding good too!). I don't know what the problem is. Like I posted earlier, the 5E3X2 is a kick ass amp, but there's nothing wrong with what you've got there, and to be honest a 2 x 6V6 amp has plenty of volume for most places I play at. In fact I ususally bring the volume down with an attenuator.

IMO, if your 5E3 isn't loud enough at venues like the one in the video, the other guys are too loud. When it's too loud people in the bar leave or complain, or both, and that doesn't go over well with the owner. If you're not cutting thru, bring the other guys down. Bass and Drums set the volume floor, that's where you have to start.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Say Bruce, I sent you a PM asking some questions, but I might as well ask here so that others might benefit too. What are the specs for your custom wound DHV PT? Do you sell that PT to folks that want to build the 5E3X2? Which voltage taps are used for the 5E3X2, and what plate voltage are you shooting for? The Weber kit includes the W022798 PT with 720V and 660V taps. Is your DHV PT about the same (voltage wise)? Do you sell a good OT for the 5E3X2? Weber's kit includes the W40428 OT, and would like to know if your OT is about the same size, and if you can compare them?
Thanks in advance.

Yes the "design specs" of the Weber 798 is very close to what mine actually are but mine are made by Heyboer and I don't know how good the Chinese Weber one is.
I always used the lower voltage tap for the 5E3X2 with a real, NOS 5U4GB rectifier tube and was shooting for under 400vdc to 390vdc at the first filter cap. All four power tubes idling at around 11-12 watts each.
IMHO, the Weber 40428 is a bit too small, I think it is a Chinese copy of a BF Bandmaster/Vibrolux OT, a 25-30 watt OT. With all this idle current it seems like it would be hard pressed to be very dynamic at higher power output.
I always used a 45 watt reissue blackface Super Reverb OT that had 2,4 and 8 ohm taps. MOJO sells one now that is excellent.

[lowell]

I built a weber 5E3x2 and eventually sold it to invest in an amp of my own design. Luckily I sold it to a friend, cause I want to borrow it for my next recording session. I dearly miss the sound of the amp. I made quite a few coupling cap changes in mine, along w/ an 820 Rk in stage 1. I also saw no need for 2 channels/inputs so mine was just 1 input. I used a 5Y3 for the maximum sag when the thing is cranked. KILLER tone. Oh and I played the amp at about 60% on a lot of very loud gigs. I used a Seymour Duncan Tube Overdrive Classic for a lead boost. It did the job but was definitely maxed out as far as clean volume goes.