5E3 Different brand caps in the different channels?

[cmattdabrat]

I'm currently piecing together a shopping list of parts to get for my first amp build. I've decided to go with carbon comp resistors, sprague atom caps, and mallory 150 caps.

Now, I was looking at pictures of Tungsten's tweed build called "Crema Wheat" and noticed they used mallory 150 caps in one channel and Mojo Dijon caps in the other. The guy giving the demo mentioned each channel was voiced slightly different. Here you can see the values of the caps in each channel.

Would I have to change any resistor values from the original 5E3 plans to try a similar configuration in caps as the Cream Wheat? Does changing the brand of caps and values make a noticeable difference? Also, is there an advantage in using cloth wrapped PVC wire vs. plan PVC wire (both military grade)? See pics on this page.

Tungsten Amps | Fat Sound

[guitarmike2107]

He actually has mojo dijon, old yellow mallory 150's and an orange drop in that amp.

I suspect he is using the dijons because he can’t get yellow mallory cap anymore, so at least they match in colour. Changing a single polyester cap to another type of polyester cap of the same capacitance is, to me at least, unnoticeable.

The only other reason to do it in a commercial amp is to make others think that you can hear the difference and thereby claim to have magik ears that can hear ants fart.

There are plenty of good 5E3 amps with just orange drops (polypropylene) or just polyester Mallory Dijon Sozo etc

As for the wire, just use good quality high voltage wire, cloth provides no tonal benefit. It only looks vintage.

I am not a cork sniffer, but I have changed thousands of components….

[m-fine]

Does changing the brand of caps and values make a noticeable difference?

No, and definitely. Cheap ceramic caps can be non-linear and microphonic, but as you move up the scale, the audible differences disapear real quick. You will not be able to hear the difference in a Mojo and a Mallory that measure the same. The second part though, different values, you absolutely can hear.

[cmattdabrat]

Thanks for the reply, guys. What cap values can be used to achieve a different tone? What is the value range that can be used? I'm curious cause I see some schematics / builds for the 5E3 where the original values were used, but then some have a greater uF and voltage value. Is this so they can use 6L6 power tubes?

In the pictures of the crema wheat build, one set of caps uses .1uf and the other uses 47nF. When I look at a conversion chart it's .47uF. I understand this will cause a tone, but how does this work?

[Chuck H]

47nf is actually .047uf, not .47uf. This is significant because .47uf is five times .1uf and .047uf is half the value of .1uf.

Also there is something to consider about the channels being interactive in a 5E3. Unless you plan to use the less interactive coupling circuit that has become popular. In the case of the interactive wiring cap value changes effect both channels. It would help a lot to know what it is you want the amp to do that a 5E3 doesn't?!? If you want a "Crema Wheat" you'd need to know specifically what the differences are between that amp and your build plan. Overall it seems like your asking what you can do to make this amp the best it can be. The problem is that is subjective. If you use quality components the amp will be the best it can be. Voicing it for your personal tastes will make the best it can be for you. Some advice:

Scratch the carbon comp resistors. No real mojo there and noisy as hell. Use metal film resistors in the preamp instead. Lose the notion of cloth braid wire, PVC inside or otherwise. Carbon comp resistors and cloth braid wire, as well as Atom caps, boutique film caps, Mercury transformers an a bunch of other stuff is just smoke and mirrors for selling amps to the not so technically inclined. Anyone who pedals voodoo around components like these is much more interested in tricking you out of your money than selling you a great sounding amp at any price. The only value in carbon comp resistors and cloth braid wire is nostalgia. The best value in component choice is whatever works the best and as it happens in this biz those components often cost less too. They're harder so sell though because they haven't been blessed by a witch doctor

Before investing in transformers consider what you want from the amp. If you like a stock 5E3 then you can use almost any "clone" 5E3 transformers. If you want something specifically NOT 5E3 out of this amp (in which case I wonder why your building a 5E3) then tell us what that is and perhaps we can suggest different PT or OT specs to get you there. More headroom, tighter sound, more bottom end, etc...

It's a good bunch here and once you've built the stock amp with some consideration of the components we will help you tweak it if you tell us what you want it to do differently. But asking us how to upgrade an amp that doesn't exist yet, for someone who's tastes are unknown is beyond my skill set. I'm a designer, not a mystic.

[hasserl]

Scratch the carbon comp resistors. No real mojo there and noisy as hell. Use metal film resistors in the preamp instead. Lose the notion of cloth braid wire, PVC inside or otherwise. Carbon comp resistors and cloth braid wire, as well as Atom caps, boutique film caps, Mercury transformers an a bunch of other stuff is just smoke and mirrors for selling amps to the not so technically inclined. Anyone who pedals voodoo around components like these is much more interested in tricking you out of your money than selling you a great sounding amp at any price. The only value in carbon comp resistors and cloth braid wire is nostalgia. The best value in component choice is whatever works the best and as it happens in this biz those components often cost less too. They're harder so sell though because they haven't been blessed by a witch doctor

Actually, I agree 100%

[cmattdabrat]

Thanks for the great advice, ChuckH.

I'm basically looking to build a versital amp, from scratch, that is reliable, but nothing too complex for a first time builder such as myself. The amp will be used to play in a cover band 2-3 times a month. From the videos I've seen is has just enough grit for the style of music we play. If I need more, I have a couple stomp box distortions.

If anything, I'm looking to get a little more clean headroom out of the amp before it starts to distort. I've never played a tweed deluxe amp before, but have played a Blues Junior, and it was decent. So I don't really know how the tweed deluxe plays.

My current setup, a 100W all tube amp half stack, is too much amp for the venues we play and quite frankly, I'm tired of hauling the thing around. Our amps are always mic'd so I don't need a whole lot of headroom. I'd like to be able to hear my amp onstage without having too much in the monitors. I need to be able to get a clean feedback (ie. the Toadies) without getting that annoying squeal.

When I begin performing with the Tweed build it will be on an amp stand angled towards my ears. So I wont need a whole lot of headroom to cut through the onstage band mix. Most venues we play are small to medium sized.

Last but not least, I play lead and from time to time I need to use delays, reverbs, chorus, phaser and tremolo effects every now and then. I use mostly analog effects. I also have the need for a lead boost. I normally achieve this with my EQ pedal in the effects loop and I basically just scoop the mids and cut down the lows and highs. I also run all my effects through my effects loop. I understand that my effects will become distort with this type of build, and I'm fine with that. I don't really saturate my sound too much with effects when I do kick them on.

Back to the build. In a perfect world, I would love to have no or very little buzz. I appreciate the advice on the resistor types to use. I figure people were using the carbon comps to help the fight against buzz. I now understand it's for nostalgic reasons. Same goes for the cloth wire.

As far as the caps go, I saw some pictures on Billm's site where some Illinois caps leaked which ultimately caused a buzz. So which caps would you recommend? Orange drop, Sprague Atom, Mallory 150, Xicon? I would just like the amp to be reliable and with very little buzz. It would be nice to have clear highs, mids, and a tight bottom end. I didn't like how some amps sounded that I've tried out lately, such as the hotrod deluxe and blues deluxe. The bottom end was very farty.

Well, I hope this is enough info so you guys can guide me in the right direction. At the moment, the plan is to just build a stock 5E3, get used to how it works, and tweak it from there, if needed.

Thanks guys!

[Chuck H]

For the novice it's much easier to build a kit. But if you build a kit that isn't your ideal amp or even fits well into your criteria, trying to make it fit into that criteria with compromises may be dissapointing.

It seems to me that a good amp for you would be a single channel with a boost foot switch for overdrive and an effects loop. But... Built with the best possible parts for good tone and reliability.

Since you'll have the amp suspended you'll need 40 or 50 watts to get good clean and bottom end at typical club stage volumes. A good efficient speaker helps with that too. A lot of guys play through whatever they like and mic for more volume or attenuate for less volume as needed. One size fits all is a tall order so no matter what you build, if you plan to use it as your main amp, expect to make concessions for different venues.

Another issue that comes to mind is whether or not you want power tube distortion. It sounds great, and maybe there's a specific player that uses some and you want that tone. But it comes at the expense of clean headroom. An amp that breaks up in the power tubes simply can't give you the same volume in a clean tone for headroom. In this case you need to get tricky with your stage rig or use a channel switching amp and preamp overdrive or pedals.

Here's another option that has worked for me. I like the 15W amps I build but in many cases that won't get me a good loud clean tone. These amps go from clean to border line metal distortion levels just using the volume control on your guitar with very little difference in overall amp volume. However, distorted tones are percieved louder because of the compression effect. That and these amps are about 5 watts louder fully overdriven than clean. It's unavoidable. So I build a speaker driven line out into my amps. I plug the line out into an AB pedal but I only use the A side into a channel on the house or bands PA. Then I can crank the amp for distortion and turn down the volume on my guitar for clean. If I need more clean volume I step on the AB pedal and get a little extra juice from the PA. Easy peezy. These amps include an effects loop but on full OD the effects do get distorted a bit since much of the OD in these amps comes from the PI and power tubes that happens AFTER the loop. But I'm potificating about my own amps now...

Bumping up a 5E3 type amp to 6L6 tubes with higher voltages, a beefier OT, making it single channel instead of two and adding an effects loop would probably work well for you. I could do it without too much difficulty but for a novice it would be much harder. Not undo-able I don't think. You've certainly come to the right place if you like the idea. Certainly there are plenty of amps you could buy that meet the face value criteria but then you either have to take a hit in component quality or pay out the nose for "boutique".

Overall I just think that with the criteria you've outlined that a 5E3 would fall short on headroom and versitility. But there are MANY cases where building a 5E3 is a life changing experience that changes a player forever and they feel they have finally found their amp. Their playing preferences change to suit the amp and they never look back.

Whatever you decide to do I am officially offering my help on layout and design. The amp you want is fairly simple and should be doable within a 5E3 type format.

[cminor9]

Scratch the carbon comp resistors. No real mojo there and noisy as hell. Use metal film resistors in the preamp instead. Lose the notion of cloth braid wire, PVC inside or otherwise. Carbon comp resistors and cloth braid wire, as well as Atom caps, boutique film caps, Mercury transformers an a bunch of other stuff is just smoke and mirrors for selling amps to the not so technically inclined. Anyone who pedals voodoo around components like these is much more interested in tricking you out of your money than selling you a great sounding amp at any price. The only value in carbon comp resistors and cloth braid wire is nostalgia. The best value in component choice is whatever works the best and as it happens in this biz those components often cost less too. They're harder so sell though because they haven't been blessed by a witch doctor

Agreed with most of this. If you ARE going to use CC resistors, at least use em in the right places: on the plates of the preamp and PI. DON'T use them on cathodes of your preamp tube. I have some on my 5E3. I don't know that it adds anything at all...but it doesn't hurt anything. I built the 5E3 I am using from a triode kit, which had all CC resistors. It hissed like a giant snake. I removed the CC resistors from the cathodes, and a few other places. It got a lot quieter when I did that.

I found this interesting way back when: http://www.geofex.com/article_folder...carboncomp.htm

But yeah, Chuck and Hasserl and co know what they're talking about. All good advice.

Parts is parts. Tales From The Tone Lounge: Parts Is Parts

[cmattdabrat]

I really appreciate the help, and advice. You're very much on track as far as what I'm looking for.

It's taken me years of playing / being a musician to appreciate a simple setup. I used to be heavy gain / multi effects pedal guy. Nowadays I just like a moderate distortion and the organic sound of analog effects, which I used sparingly. I also have a better understanding of how tube amps work (ie. power tube distortion vs preamp distortion), which is why I'm considering a 5E3 build.

Like you said, there are amps that suit my needs on the market perfectly, but the tone for the price just isn't there, IMO. The fender Hotrod Deluxe is pretty close as far as the features I need, but the tone, not so much.

The thing that appeals to me about the 5E3 is the simplicity of it, not only as a first time builder, but from a players stand point. As you mentioned, I could roll back the volume knob, or even play a little lighter and get a clean sound. Once I turned the volume up or attached the strings more aggressively, I would get the grit I need. As you know, that's cause the amp can cleanly process the lower input volume without overloading the power tubes. Once that signal is increase, the tubes begin to overload or breakup distorting the signal. That's my understanding.

That's the distortion tone I'm after. Power tube distortion. My only problem is, in a band situation, I need that distortion and a slight lead boost to cut through the mix. Perhaps using my EQ to scoop the mids will do. Maybe not cause the amp is already pushing it's max volume.

On a personal level, I would like to have a long lasting amp I could also use to play moderately at home. I really prefer to play blues and will probably eventually make a transition into originals, but for now, my focus for this amp is the cover band playing popular rock tunes from the 80's up until today's music.

I like the idea of a single channel amp with an effects loop, but as you mentioned, it's almost pointless cause the distortion is coming from the power tubes. The loop might be something to keep in mind. Possibly as an mod later down the road.

What if I used a 12AY7 tube in the V1 position and 6L6 power tubes? Of course that would call for mods to the 5E3 layout, but would that get me a little more headroom? Also, how much louder could I expect the amp to be?

I'm not quite sure how loud a 15w 5E3 is in a band mix, so if it were pushing 20-25W or even 40W, I'm not sure what to expect and at what volume level I would have to drive it to get the PT distortion. It's hard to tell cause I have no basis for comparison other than my 100w half stack which I normally run at 2.5-3 out of a 1-10 scale. Even then my sound man is constantly telling me to turn down. At that point, I can't hear my amp, cause the sound is directed towards my butt, and he has to turn me up in the monitor mix which normally results in an annoying feedback when I'm needing a smooth natural feedback.

Speaking of the sound man, he could always boost my volume when I play a solo. He's always at the board.

Again, I appreciate the help! I'm sure we'll figure something out.

Matt

[cminor9]

I'm not quite sure how loud a 15w 5E3 is in a band mix, so if it were pushing 20-25W or even 40W, I'm not sure what to expect and at what volume level I would have to drive it to get the PT distortion. It's hard to tell cause I have no basis for comparison other than my 100w half stack which I normally run at 2.5-3 out of a 1-10 scale. Even then my sound man is constantly telling me to turn down. At that point, I can't hear my amp, cause the sound is directed towards my butt, and he has to turn me up in the monitor mix which normally results in an annoying feedback when I'm needing a smooth natural feedback.

Like you, I used to play through a big amp (Hot Rod DeVille) and use pedals and all many years ago. Never cared much for gear, just found a tone I liked and went with it. Then just to learn, I built a 5E3 (no 6L6s here, I kept it fairly stock). It changed my life as a player. I don't think I had ever heard my guitar playing through a tube amp being run correctly (the drive channels on a deville don't count, I mean real power tube distortion)

Whether a 5E3 will be loud enough largely depends on what kind of speaker you choose. I put a Weber Blue Dog in there, and it's usually too loud for the situations I find myself in. I have used the 5E3 for jazz trio gigs (bass + sax) and there obviously you don't need much volume. With the band I play in, we play a mix of stuff from Motown to Blues to Classic Rock. I still find that my 5E3 can rage too loud if I am not careful. That said, we don't play loud. We try to play quiet in most cases. But even on outdoor gigs, I have found that I never really run it too hard.

Once, I was playing an outdoor party where there was another guitar, drums, bass, sax, keyboard, and a few singers. It was loud! That was the only time I felt I didn't have the volume I needed. But that might have been because I was standing in a place where I couldn't hear the thing. And I wasn't being swamped, but I went to play a solo and just couldn't get much above the band. I could have used just a bit more oomph.

I wired up a dummy load to run in parallel with the speaker to quiet this thing down at the flick of a switch. For band rehearsals in my basement it's perfect.

If you are playing with guys who are running Hot Rod deluxes or ac-30s full out, or a drummer who tries to puncture his drumheads, then maybe you won't have enough stage volume. But jeez, unless you are playing somewhere with your name in lights (as in, people are paying mainly to hear you play) you don't need that much volume anyhow. Yeah yeah, I know, tell it to the drummer That said, in your case, it depends. But I'll tell you this: if that 5E3 doesn't cut it for live stuff, you will love it at home! A 5F4/5E5-a/5E7 might be a good choice. I don't have one, though, so I cannot say for sure. But the schematic shows you that those are *fairly* close to a 5E3 in some ways. At least closer than any other tweed fender.

Way back when I was a teenager, I used to run that Hot Rod Deville full out, with a Boss MT-2 in front, playing (or trying at least) old thrash stuff like Metallica and Slayer. It's a wonder I can still hear!

[Chuck H]

If you build a 5E3 with a beefier PT (not higher voltage but mA rating) and a beefier OT, Then install a (cathode/fixed bias-tube/diode rectifier) switch, an external bias test point and adjustment, and keep a pair of 6L6's and a DMM with you, you should have a very versitile setup. In stock configuration you'll have about 17 watts and a little more bottom end and dynamics than the stock amp. Not profoundly different. If the gig needs a little more oomph you can flip to fixed bias/diode rectifier and plug in the 6L6's. A quick check on the bias and viola, now you have about 35 watts. If you separate the switching you can also do cathode bias with a diode rectifier or fixed bias with a tube rectifier for some tonal variation and in between wattages and subtle texture changes. These are really simple switches to implement too as long as your initial transformer choices allow for the differences in power. A neat trick is to use a relatively low efficiency speaker in the amp and have an extension cabinet with relatively high efficiency speaker. When you need to be quiet you play in cathode bias/tube rectifier mode with 6V6's and the combo speaker. When you need to get REALLY loud you play in fixed bias/diode rectifier mode, plug in the 6L6's and use the extension speaker. This rig would also allow a lot of points in between. The extension cab could be employed as a stand (whether plugged in or not) to get the stock amp up off the ground and the two together would look really cool on stage too. There you go. A 5E3 for any situation.

Just thinking out loud.

EDIT: I would also include the speaker driven line out for added versitility... Lemme 'splain... If you want cranked amp tone you can have that. Now you want to turn down but you want a loud clean tone. So you have the line out plugged into an A/B box and then to the PA as I described. Then you can get a volume boost from the PA for cleans if needed. Another great trick is to use the line out as an effects loop. Plug the line out into your effects and then into the PA. Wa-la, now your effects are post distortion and you can even run stereo effects if you have two channels on the PA available.

[pdf64]

You need to actually try a 5E3. The way that the volume controls operate can be very frustrating. You may find that the 6G3 arrangement is more user friendly.
A 5E3 will put out about the same sound level as a Blues Junior. For me, that's not enough to work with a drummer. Using 2 100dB/watt 12" speakers helps, but even then, big clean tones aren't achievable.
The idea of using transformers that will support 6L6 in fixed bias may be very helpful, as then a variety of power outputs (~15 to 30 watts) and overdrive characteristics (cathode / fixed bias, various rectifiers) can be configured. A pure 5E3 runs the risk, in the worst case scenario, of being too loud for domestic use but not loud enough for band use.
Also a larger cab than a 5E3 would help with getting a good bottom end.
Given the above, a Weber 5E5A kit, with 2x12 baffle, may be the best way forward, as that chassis and cab would then support all options and give the best chance that the build was useful.
'distorted tones are percieved louder because of the compression effect. That and these amps are about 5 watts louder fully overdriven than clean'
Chuck, have you checked that with a 5E3 type amp, ie with a 4k7 resistor supplying the screen power supply node, as opposed to a choke? My 5E3 type amp puts out about the same power distorted as clean (using a true rms meter). This is because the screen current increases a lot when overdriven, which pulls the screen voltage down, and so reduces the output. Replace the 4k7 with a choke, or even a 1k, and the overdriven/clean power ratio increases. Pete.

[Chuck H]

'distorted tones are percieved louder because of the compression effect. That and these amps are about 5 watts louder fully overdriven than clean'

Chuck, have you checked that with a 5E3 type amp, ie with a 4k7 resistor supplying the screen power supply node, as opposed to a choke? My 5E3 type amp puts out about the same power distorted as clean (using a true rms meter). This is because the screen current increases a lot when overdriven, which pulls the screen voltage down, and so reduces the output. Replace the 4k7 with a choke, or even a 1k, and the overdriven/clean power ratio increases. Pete.

Yup, and on my scope with a dummy load my amps produce the same output clean as distorted. However, in the interest of knowing the real world scenario I measured the actual voltage at the speaker terminals with the amp under playing conditions and found that the actual clean measurement was very close to the same but under heavy OD there was a bit more output. This could be due to rapidly changing bias conditions and bursts demonstrating "peak" power artifacts on my meter I suppose but in that case it's happening rapidly and frequently enough to get a meter read and so also it seems affect the output power. It's actually a common phenomenon. For example, it's been mentioned here many times that a Vox AC30 while putting out only 30 clean watts is generating closer to 50 fully overdriven. There's usually no explaination for this but here we go...

The Vox is "class A" but does shift somewhat into AB when overdriven, My amps are very hot AB and may actually be operating class A (as many AB amps do) up until the last few watts of it's clean range. To my knowledge a 5E3 is typically biased similarly hot AB. In fact it's a popular (though I don't advocate it) trick to simply unplug one tube in a two tube BF Fender for lower output class A clean tones.

[cmattdabrat]

Like you, I used to play through a big amp (Hot Rod DeVille) and use pedals and all many years ago. Never cared much for gear, just found a tone I liked and went with it. Then just to learn, I built a 5E3 (no 6L6s here, I kept it fairly stock). It changed my life as a player. I don't think I had ever heard my guitar playing through a tube amp being run correctly (the drive channels on a deville don't count, I mean real power tube distortion)

Whether a 5E3 will be loud enough largely depends on what kind of speaker you choose. I put a Weber Blue Dog in there, and it's usually too loud for the situations I find myself in. I have used the 5E3 for jazz trio gigs (bass + sax) and there obviously you don't need much volume. With the band I play in, we play a mix of stuff from Motown to Blues to Classic Rock. I still find that my 5E3 can rage too loud if I am not careful. That said, we don't play loud. We try to play quiet in most cases. But even on outdoor gigs, I have found that I never really run it too hard.

Once, I was playing an outdoor party where there was another guitar, drums, bass, sax, keyboard, and a few singers. It was loud! That was the only time I felt I didn't have the volume I needed. But that might have been because I was standing in a place where I couldn't hear the thing. And I wasn't being swamped, but I went to play a solo and just couldn't get much above the band. I could have used just a bit more oomph.

I wired up a dummy load to run in parallel with the speaker to quiet this thing down at the flick of a switch. For band rehearsals in my basement it's perfect.

If you are playing with guys who are running Hot Rod deluxes or ac-30s full out, or a drummer who tries to puncture his drumheads, then maybe you won't have enough stage volume. But jeez, unless you are playing somewhere with your name in lights (as in, people are paying mainly to hear you play) you don't need that much volume anyhow. Yeah yeah, I know, tell it to the drummer That said, in your case, it depends. But I'll tell you this: if that 5E3 doesn't cut it for live stuff, you will love it at home! A 5F4/5E5-a/5E7 might be a good choice. I don't have one, though, so I cannot say for sure. But the schematic shows you that those are *fairly* close to a 5E3 in some ways. At least closer than any other tweed fender.

Way back when I was a teenager, I used to run that Hot Rod Deville full out, with a Boss MT-2 in front, playing (or trying at least) old thrash stuff like Metallica and Slayer. It's a wonder I can still hear!

Thanks for sharing your experience. Same here. When I was a teen I played metal and loved high gain and loud amplification. Now that I'm 30, have matured some, and have more experience, I prefer a moderate distortion and playing level.

I did at one point playing in my current band with a small solid state fender amp and it was plenty loud enough for what we do. I can't recall how many watts it was, but it wasn't very loud. So maybe 15-18 watts will do.