Build a 5E3 OR..... (long, rambling question)

[kayaker]

Greetings. I'm struggling on whether to build a Mission Amps 5E3 kit (or similar) or buy a more "general purpose" amp like a Peavey Classic 30. I posted my quandry over on the Harmony Central guitar forum but got such divided opinions that I figured I'd check here as well. Understandably, , I'm sure most here would just say "BUILD IT!" but I'm hoping that maybe you guys might have some more input to help me just make up my darn mind!

I'm still a noob... been playing around 7 months or so. I have a Vox DA5 that is great for family room hacking. I just met a guy in the neighborhood who also plays (much better) and he has asked me to stop over some time to jam with him and another guy who plays drums. I really don't think I'm up to the point of taking him up on his offer (I suck and am a bit of a "slow learner" ) but, maybe soon... when I get better... when I get up a bit more courage... heck, when I can play a song or two through the whole way without stopping 3 times. Anyway, I think I want/need a bigger amp.

I have an electronics background and am really intrigued with the Fender tweed clone amp kits. Mission Amps has a highly regarded "5E3" kit for $650 and I REALLY like the looks of the old, tweed amps. I think it'd be a pretty easy build. Problem is, it's "only" 15 watts, which I've been told is not big enough to stand up to a drummer.

On the other hand, I can get a new Peavey Classic 30 for $600 (30 watts), and it has reverb, "effects loop" (not that I need that now anyway... and, when DO you need it? can't most pedals go between the guitar and amp input???). I can probably get a used one for $400 or so.


I'm torn. Aside from "get what you like", any sage advice? I've been focusing on blues/blues rock and have a Fender Strat and an Ibanez AS73 (335 clone). The "real" Fender '57 Deluxe tweed reissue is like $1,700, so I'm thinking a good, point-to-point wired clone of it for $650 is a steal... but, the Peavey sounds nice, too... and maybe more practical(?).

... SO... that's what I asked over on the other forum, and got about 50% saying "build the tweed" and the other 50% saying: the tweed is a one trick pony, doesn't have the "clean" fender tone and makes you sacrifice a lot of flexibility just to have that tweed look.

Is this true of ALL 5E3 kits? Do some of them have a wider spectrum of tones (clean, slightly dirty, growling, etc.) or are the all "dirty, dirtier, dirtiest" ???

Also, if I do get a tweed kit, with no effects loop,how well do they take pedals if/when I decide I need them to get more flexibility than the stock amp?

Sorry for the rambling post but I'm really torn here and appreciate any input. I'm focusing on learning blues and am hung up on the idea of building a tweed amp. I can't afford to have BOTH (my wife will kill me) and can't decide what a better first "big" amp (well, bigger than a 5 watt, solid state Vox DA5, that is).

[Satamax]

May be get yourself an old ptp amp, from cheaper manufacturer than fender, traynor comes to mind, but there's some others i think, and mod to taste. I'm partial to fender heads and homemade cabs. That could be another option, thought even silverface cocts a fair bit nowadays. Guild, gibson, ampeg, ohahu, kay, silverstone, all have made valve amps. You even have a cheaper option, valve PA or phono, radio amps. Looking on ebay, to see what i could recomend, i found this for example. http://cgi.ebay.com/Ampeg-Superjet-S...QQcmdZViewItem

HTH.

Max.

[GuyG]

Well, why not try a diffrent kit?
check out ceriatone.com

[n5oet3h]

Greetings. I'm struggling on whether to build a Mission Amps 5E3 kit (or similar) or buy a more "general purpose" amp like a Peavey Classic 30. I posted my quandry over on the Harmony Central guitar forum but got such divided opinions that I figured I'd check here as well. Understandably, , I'm sure most here would just say "BUILD IT!" but I'm hoping that maybe you guys might have some more input to help me just make up my darn mind!

I'm still a noob... been playing around 7 months or so. I have a Vox DA5 that is great for family room hacking. I just met a guy in the neighborhood who also plays (much better) and he has asked me to stop over some time to jam with him and another guy who plays drums. I really don't think I'm up to the point of taking him up on his offer (I suck and am a bit of a "slow learner" ) but, maybe soon... when I get better... when I get up a bit more courage... heck, when I can play a song or two through the whole way without stopping 3 times. Anyway, I think I want/need a bigger amp.

I have an electronics background and am really intrigued with the Fender tweed clone amp kits. Mission Amps has a highly regarded "5E3" kit for $650 and I REALLY like the looks of the old, tweed amps. I think it'd be a pretty easy build. Problem is, it's "only" 15 watts, which I've been told is not big enough to stand up to a drummer.

On the other hand, I can get a new Peavey Classic 30 for $600 (30 watts), and it has reverb, "effects loop" (not that I need that now anyway... and, when DO you need it? can't most pedals go between the guitar and amp input???). I can probably get a used one for $400 or so.


I'm torn. Aside from "get what you like", any sage advice? I've been focusing on blues/blues rock and have a Fender Strat and an Ibanez AS73 (335 clone). The "real" Fender '57 Deluxe tweed reissue is like $1,700, so I'm thinking a good, point-to-point wired clone of it for $650 is a steal... but, the Peavey sounds nice, too... and maybe more practical(?).

... SO... that's what I asked over on the other forum, and got about 50% saying "build the tweed" and the other 50% saying: the tweed is a one trick pony, doesn't have the "clean" fender tone and makes you sacrifice a lot of flexibility just to have that tweed look.

Is this true of ALL 5E3 kits? Do some of them have a wider spectrum of tones (clean, slightly dirty, growling, etc.) or are the all "dirty, dirtier, dirtiest" ???

Also, if I do get a tweed kit, with no effects loop,how well do they take pedals if/when I decide I need them to get more flexibility than the stock amp?

Sorry for the rambling post but I'm really torn here and appreciate any input. I'm focusing on learning blues and am hung up on the idea of building a tweed amp. I can't afford to have BOTH (my wife will kill me) and can't decide what a better first "big" amp (well, bigger than a 5 watt, solid state Vox DA5, that is).

Well, in a few weeks I'd have a better answer for you, because I've just completed building my Mission 5E3. I'm still checking the build and testing it, so it should be in the cabinet soon enough. I only got the Jensen C12Q speaker because I'm planning to get a Celestion Blue. I've read tons on this amp though, and I think I can safely say, especially if you're "focusing on learning blues", it's a no brainer: get one!! It is more flexible than many think, once you learn the sensitivity of the controls and how you play your guitar. 15 watts to 30 watts is only 3 db - not that much louder. You can accomplish the same by getting a very efficient speaker.

I'll post again once I've got it completely finished.

Good luck.

[hasserl]

The 5E3 is "only" 15 watts, but that is loud enough to jam with a drummer, unless the drummer is really loud.

The 5E3 is one of the classic circuits that is really cool, but whether it's the right amp for you is hard to say. People are so different, no one can say what's right for you. The Classic 30 is more versatile, but IMO none of the sounds it's capable of are as cool as the few that the 5E3 does so well. That's just my opinion and I'm sure other people would disagree. The C30 tends to be an amp that draws passionate responses from those that love it, while many people (myself included) are less than thrilled with it. I suppose the same could be said about the 5E3.

I'll tell you, the only way to tell for sure is to experience them yourself and see what you like. BUT, the 5E3 is a classic amp that we are building copies of decades after it was last issued. I highly doubt anyone will be making copies of a Classic 30 in four to five decades from now.

As for the Mission kit, I understand it to be a first class kit, and Bruce is a first class guy. For a first time amp build, going with one of his kits would be a wise choice.

[kayaker]

Thanks for the input. I think my fading electronics memory/skills are probably more suited to assembling a dummy-proof kit like the well documented, fully-accessoried Mission one, rather than for fixing/modifying an old amp or working with the more "electronics builder/enthusiast" kits like the Ceiatone ones seem to be. You guys are giving me MORE options, not keeping it simple!

My biggest problem isn't with the cost or quality of the Mission kit, I think I'm most torn because I don't know what tonal range and/or effects flexibility I'll be "missing" if I choose to build a 5E3 amp. Are there options/mods that make a 5E3 more "rounded" or "broad" in the tone department |(without giving up much "tweedyness" in the bargain. For example, would different tube options allow me to get better cleans from it if I end up thinking it's just too dirty at best?

n5oet3h, yes, I'd love to hear your initial impressions of your Mission 5E3 as soon as you get it up 'n running. I'm not too concerned about the 15 watts versus 30 watts... I'm more concerned that I'll build one and then figure out the tone can't be varied much. Particularly, I'm wondering if I won't get the best cleans that really shine with a single-coil guitar like my strat. I'd also like to know how you (or anybody else) make out with adding pedals, stomp boxes, etc. I think I've read that a lot of them sound muddy if you add them between the guitar and amp input... and it's much better to put them in an effects look (is that puting after the preamp?). But, again, I'm a noob and obsessing over things I know little about.

[RickyD]

I built a Mission 5E3 eight monthes ago. Nice kit. It's a great amp. I still can't believe how good it sounds. I've said this before. Big, fat cleans; a huge touch sensitive sweet spot; and a viscious overdrive.

I've been playing since 1964. Took me 40 some odd years to find out how cool these things are. When I take it to a jam, everyone wants to try it and no one wants to give it back. You get this smile locked on your face, can't stop smiling...

If you want a tube amp with a lot of flexibility, skip the Peavey and go to ebay for a Mesa Boogie Studio .22+ with graphic EQ. $500 - $600 should do it for a nice one, shipped. It's a real nice amp, very flexible. I sold one to get the my 5E3.

[TD_Madden]

For a bit more headroom (and a small volume increase) in the 5E3 kit, Bruce sells his "Super" output tranformer that replaces the original, and used with 6L6s gives about 18 watts. I built one that has a RedFang in it and it is VERY versatile...add his tone-mod kit and the humbucking-kit while you're at it.

Or, take a look at his 5F4 "Super" kit...at about 30 watts.

Efficient speakers make a BIG difference in these amps!

[kayaker]

Thanks... and another few questions about pedals.

Thanks guys... I guess I'll go ahead and just build one and find out. It's the only way I'll know if it right for me. I can't imagine I'll be disappointed in the tone, even if it doesn't have the "cleanest cleans".

If it doesn't take effect pedals well (if/when I get them) then I'll just worry about it then. I'd still like to hear any comments on that if any of you use pedals in front of a 5E3 (???). I read somewhere that they really sound muddy. I THINK I've heard something about patching them between two of the inputs, rather than between the guitar and amp. How does THAT work?

I DO understand that the whole point of a 50's tweed amp is the bare simplicity of just a guitar and amp, but would feel better knowing that it won't sound like total crap if I decide I'd like a pedal or two on occasion (or maybe even totally defile it with a Digitech RP-350 or some such thing).

[TD_Madden]

the only effects I've used have been a HolyGrail reverb, and a old Ibanez chorus and digital-delay. No problems.

[daho]

I use my Mission Deluxe with an OCD for low volume distortion, a TS808 for leads, a Classic CryBaby and a Boss ME20. No problems whatsoever. If you have a bass heavy guitar the fat sound of the deluxe could get muddy, but you can easily run an EQ in the chain to cut the bass down.

Bruce's 6L6/transformer mod should give you more clean volume if you need it. Talk to Bruce about the available options.

[n5oet3h]

Thanks for the input. I think my fading electronics memory/skills are probably more suited to assembling a dummy-proof kit like the well documented, fully-accessoried Mission one, rather than for fixing/modifying an old amp or working with the more "electronics builder/enthusiast" kits like the Ceiatone ones seem to be. You guys are giving me MORE options, not keeping it simple!

My biggest problem isn't with the cost or quality of the Mission kit, I think I'm most torn because I don't know what tonal range and/or effects flexibility I'll be "missing" if I choose to build a 5E3 amp. Are there options/mods that make a 5E3 more "rounded" or "broad" in the tone department |(without giving up much "tweedyness" in the bargain. For example, would different tube options allow me to get better cleans from it if I end up thinking it's just too dirty at best?

n5oet3h, yes, I'd love to hear your initial impressions of your Mission 5E3 as soon as you get it up 'n running. I'm not too concerned about the 15 watts versus 30 watts... I'm more concerned that I'll build one and then figure out the tone can't be varied much. Particularly, I'm wondering if I won't get the best cleans that really shine with a single-coil guitar like my strat. I'd also like to know how you (or anybody else) make out with adding pedals, stomp boxes, etc. I think I've read that a lot of them sound muddy if you add them between the guitar and amp input... and it's much better to put them in an effects look (is that puting after the preamp?). But, again, I'm a noob and obsessing over things I know little about.

Kayaker,

Gee, I'm flattered I've been referred to ;-)

I've been using my Missiom 5E3 for a few months now. Though I don't gig, I cannot believe how loud this thing will play! I'm planning exactly what someone else referred to: took it with the C12Q cause I hope to get the Celestion blue later on. But the Jensen is no slouch, and Bruce wouldn't supply a crappy speaker with his kit - that wouldn't make sense. Now as for level, consider this carefully: If you get the Celestion Blue, you will effectively quadruple your power, as if the amp now had 60 Watts!! That's because the Blue is more than 6 dB efficient than the Jensen. Each 3 dB increase effectively doubles the power. All I know is, I still have the Jensen, and it is so loud I've built an attenutor so I can get distorted levels. Even then, I haven't had to go much past 6 or 7. That should clear up your concerns about power.

The real magic of this amp is its sound. Everything you've heard is true. The texture of the notes is unbelievably rich and complex. The sensitivity to the guitar is incredible. Super clean or overdriven - it all sounds beautiful. And it will make you a better guitarist. You will keep this thing forever.

That's MNSHO. Get the Mission 5E3 kit. You've got the skills to build it, and you won't regret it.

Best of luck,
n5oet3h

[xFallen]

I use my Mission Deluxe with an OCD for low volume distortion, a TS808 for leads, a Classic CryBaby and a Boss ME20. No problems whatsoever. If you have a bass heavy guitar the fat sound of the deluxe could get muddy, but you can easily run an EQ in the chain to cut the bass down.

Bruce's 6L6/transformer mod should give you more clean volume if you need it. Talk to Bruce about the available options.

I have heard people mention this before and I know what they refer to as I have witnessed it in many an amp. But Drop D tuning, Heritage H-157 humbuckers on the neck or both pickups, or P-90s on my all mahogany TA Cobra and the 5E3 is an earthshaker. Some adjustment of ther guitar and amp controls may be required, but I would not characterize my 5E3 as muddy. Even with fuzz or OD in front it can be set to stay articulate and fat.

Lots of people seem to dime everything or do not take time to learn how the various controls impact tone. They give up before they find the sweet spot and write off an amp/guitar/p'ups/fx/strings/you name it.


Barry

[RickyD]

"Lots of people seem to dime everything or do not take time to learn how the various controls impact tone. They give up before they find the sweet spot and write off an amp/guitar/p'ups/fx/strings/you name it."

When you dime a 5E3, you get $.02 change.

[xFallen]

"Lots of people seem to dime everything or do not take time to learn how the various controls impact tone. They give up before they find the sweet spot and write off an amp/guitar/p'ups/fx/strings/you name it."

When you dime a 5E3, you get $.02 change.

Yeah...there you go...

"Mine goes to 12"