A clone of the Lazy J J20?

[Chuck H]

Well let us be honest about this... 5e3's with stock circuit parameters (power supply sag?) do compress and "swell/bloom" enough that in the hands of a player that chooses to use those effects it can sound really cool. That doesn't mean there's a need for a Holy Grail quest. It's just a property some amps have and others don't. Actually good players don't obsess about this. They hear it when they hear it and use it when they can and should. Good players also use more dynamic amps effectively. In fact most have a battery of pedals they use to emulate any circumstance they need for anything. I am not that player, but I surely know they exist because I've met them. Does anyone really think Neil Young would be a lesser writer/musician without his vintage Deluxe? I attended a private party he attended where he played through a poorly maintained 2x6v6 Princeton (6G2?) and sounded like Neil Young. Surprise! This was a house within walking distance of his place in Santa Cruz, Ca. He literally just dropped in and proceeded to crush it with whatever was on the floor at the time. Just sayin'. I'll admit that the only reason I got into amplifier circuitry in the first place was because I thought a better tone would improve my playing. But guess what... It's not like that. Building amps that have good tone is still important, but real artists don't give a rats ass. They find something useful in the sound of anything they use and exploit that aspect to make music and art. The guys that obsess about the tone/feel/sound of any particular amp or even ideals in a genre are not the real artists. Real artists would make music with a wash tub, a stick and some string if that's all they had. (<period)

Again, this isn't to say the search for a good tone or the creation of it isn't important. In fact it's all the fun I ever get. And great artists do buy the best amps they can for their craft. But they don't NEED them to be artists. And obsession about these matters should be secondary to the actual obsessions that drive artists.

JM2C

[tzurby]

And obsession about these matters should be secondary to the actual obsessions that drive artists.

That's right and wrong at the same time. 1. Searching for "the" tone does not mean that one wants to be just like that star artist (say Neil Young), but to get a good, inspiring tone. 2. Neil Young chased for tone as many others do as well. He was thrilled when he got the Tweed Deluxe in 1967. He remembered: "Immediately, the entire room started to vibrate. I went, ‘Holy shit!’ I had to turn it halfway down before it stopped feeding back." (He probably did not know that basically the sag thrilled him.)

But the first tones he got were far away from what he achieved later on (many modifications by technicians, 6L6, +Reverbtank and Echoplex, an 125A1A brownface Deluxe OT). Also, he es said to have dozens of Deluxes, none sounding like "the one" - why?

When I wanted to give an example of his - particularly "saggy" - tone, I found quite a few versions of Cortez, but only the one g1 quoted (my link did not work) shows this sound in its full bloom (there sure are some more in this perfection). Also the other ones sound like Neil Young. But these are not "the" sound we and Neil Young are (or have been) chasing for.

Apart from that: We all need to practise, and we need to find our style. The tone is an essential part of that. Look at Brian May, Richie Blackmore, Rory Gallagher, Peter Townsend - and, of course, Jimi Hendrix. They all chased for tone. And they got it. It helped them to form their style.

In Peter Jacksons "Get Back" documentary, we hear John Lennon say about the newly acquired Fender Twin Reverbs: "These sound really good" (my remembrance). I am sure, this inspired him. John Lennon, not such a great guitarist, did some of his best guitar works during these sessions.

[Chuck H]

I'll concede to some of your points above. I did mention that real artists do try to aquire the best and most suitable gear that does what they want. Also to that point would be that the reason I love my own amp is that I don't think about my tone when I'm using it. I just play. That sort of freedom from rationalizing during the creative process is what artists strive for. I was being a little over dramatic on the matter.

[Helmholtz]

So far, nobody has mentioned the filter capacitors. The difference between 16uF and 22uF is often dismissed, but I think there is a slight difference.

Filter cap values influence attack and release times as well as the actual amount of the sag induced compression.
So there will be a difference in dynamic response.
Often increasing filter capacitance spoils the sound and"feel".

[35L6]

Searching for tone is fun . When you make a change to an amp and play it to see if it works and wind up playing for an hour , that's good tone .

[The Dude]

Surely understood here by most, but just to add to the discussion: There is an inference by some around the interwebs that PT construction has an effect on tone, as if it were in the audio path. It is not. It simply supplies voltage to the audio path. It can only change tone by either it's output voltage level (compared to another transformer), or the amount of sag under given loads.

[Helmholtz]

Surely understood here by most, but just to add to the discussion: There is an inference by some around the interwebs that PT construction has an effect on tone, as if it were in the audio path. It is not. It simply supplies voltage to the audio path. It can only change tone by either it's output voltage level (compared to another transformer), or the amount of sag under given loads.

See post #8.