5e3 Clean Sound

[BluesDude]

I have made several posts on this topic and am getting ready to make some modifications. But they have been in different posts. Before I order parts and begin... I would like to confirm that I am heading down a workable path. I would like to make sure that I am not trying to do mods where one mod will make one of my goals unachievable.

My goals are:

1) Reduce bass - will do this by bypass and coupling cap mods
2) Separate the channels better - 6g3 style vol/tone mode --
3) Brighten the normal channel - 6g3 style vol/tone mode -- dual ganged tone control
4) Use one channel for clean and one for dirt - Can this be done with the 6g3 vol/tone cirCuit? Will the lack of channel interaction limit my ability to accomplish this goal? Ideally, I set the vols on both channels on the amp an leave the amp alone and use an A/B box to switch back an forth between clean and dirt with a similar volume level set on each channel on the amp.

the stock 57 Tweed Deluxe the vol control interaction seems to be commonly used to achieve a clean sound... (plug in to the bright channel crank it to the desired vol then turn of the normal channel to around 8-10).

Can I achieve all of the goals (together) by making the mods I outlined above?

Thanks for your help.

[cminor9]

My goals are:
1) Reduce bass - will do this by bypass and coupling cap mods
2) Separate the channels better - 6g3 style vol/tone mode --
3) Brighten the normal channel - 6g3 style vol/tone mode -- dual ganged tone control
4) Use one channel for clean and one for dirt - Can this be done with the 6g3 vol/tone cirCuit? Will the lack of channel interaction limit my ability to accomplish this goal? Ideally, I set the vols on both channels on the amp an leave the amp alone and use an A/B box to switch back an forth between clean and dirt with a similar volume level set on each channel on the amp.

changing coupling caps will help with #1.

If you want to separate the two channels a 6G3 tone stack mod will work; but you still need to find a way to make one dirtier and one cleaner. The volume knob on the guitar does this already. I'd recommend learning how to twiddle the knob to get the tone you want. It works beautifully.

That said, I realize not everyone likes to do that. How were you going to make one channel dirty and one clean? Just keep them at different volumes (dirty full up, clean down more)? I don't think that'd work great on a 5E3. How clean a 5E3 is depends on the input to a large extent. You can get dirty sounds at low values on the volume control, and clean sounds when cranked just by the knobs on the guitar. This is what people mean when they call the 5E3 dynamic, and I love this aspect. But this quality works against you when you want to create a clean and a dirty channel, assuming you want to leave the guitar's knobs alone and just step on a switch to go from clean to dirt.

One thing you could do is separate the two triodes a bit more. Put a 220k or even a 270k plate resistor on the "dirty" channel and leave the clean one stock. Separate the cathodes. Make the clean one 1.5k ohms and leave the 25-25 cap. On the dirty channel, play with the cathode resistor's value (try 820, try 3.3k, see what you prefer) and go to a smaller value bypass cap (like 0.068uf.) The lower B+ on the one channel with the 220k plate resistor will make it dirtier, and the smaller bypass cap will cut the bass a bit to give you a bit more top end. I'd also make that coupling cap on that stage smallish, .02 or smaller for sizzle. You could also try what I have seen called a snubber cap, a small value cap in parallel with the plate resistor (see the 6G3 schem). In essence all of these changes will give you more of a 6G3 front end on the dirty channel, which people seem to like for dirt.

I guess you could also use a transistor to cause one channel to clip really hard. I wouldn't know how to do that, but maybe someone else could tell you. In some ways that might be easiest although I am not sure I'd personally like that sound. In fact, what you're going to get in any case is a lot of saturation in the preamp. And since most amps use 12ax7s in the preamp, I theorize it'll lose some of that 5E3 characteristic tone. If only there were a way to get one channel to drive those power tubes to saturation, hmm...maybe one channel up real high would do that? Not sure...

Your sig says you want expert advice, and I don't consider myself an expert, but I have built a few 5E3s and a 6G3. On one of my 5E3 builds I played with the preamp quite a bit with help from folks on this forum, and above are just some ideas I played around with. Hope it helps! One quick disclaimer: I ended up reverting just about every mod anyhow. There's a reason the 5E3 is a classic!

Have fun...

[BluesDude]

I was beginning to get a little confused with all of the mod ideas as to what might help me tune the amp to my taste.

It sounds like a 6g3 vol/tone mod will not help me to achieve a clean sound. The separation of the controls would eliminate one way of achieving a clean sound.

Before I make any changes, I will do some additional experimentation with the guitar and existing configuration of the amp.

My sig and the expert advice comment... I just didn't want anyone to read my posts and run with an idea I post. I realize everyone here has varying levels of knowledge and experience on the subject. From my vantage point... you are more of an expert than me. Thanks for sharing your experience.

[SonicVI]

I've been contemplating this very same thing. One idea which could work regarding the low and high gain channels would be to use a 12DW7 tube for V1. The 12DW7 is like a 12AX7 but one of the triodes is much lower gain, like a 12AU7. Each channel would then have a different amount of gain. Alternatively you could give each triode in V1 its own cathode resistor and bias them for different amounts of gain. I'm not sure how well either of these will work as the volume levels between the channels may not match.