tweed bandmaster tone

[isaac]

Hey guys, I built a tweed bandmaster and I don't have a cabinet for it, so it just goes with whatever 2x12 or whatever I have laying around, but it sounds a little bit odd, Since the pro, bandmaster, super, LP twin, are all so same, how do you think would be the best way to get this tone...

Get That Classic Fender Sound - Jim Weider 1 - YouTube

I love that, I mean, the amp sounds awesome, but not quite like I've heard the bandmaster/pro/super, whatever to sound. I have a switch on the back changing the NFB from Bandmaster to pro/super to off and that works pretty well, but IDK, it's actually a little bit thicker than I'd hoped, could it just be because of not having a tweed shape/sized speaker cab, or maybe my tubes. The tubes are EH 12ay7 JJecc83, and GT12ax7, peavey 6l6 (x2) and SS rectifier. (the 2nd and 3rd tubes, JJ and GT, I'm not completely sure of those, I can't remember exactly what's there, but I'm pretty sure that's what they are. I should probably just play the amp more, and learn it better. I could also switch the feedback resistor by the cathode follower triode from 10Meg to 5Meg, I suppose.

I guess I could start by putting my bright volume control on about 3-oclock... treble about 1-oclock, bass 9-oclock, presence to match treble, and turn my NFB switch to the pro/super position. Maybe use alnico speakers vs ceramic. Who knows. Or even try putting 6v6's in and try that, that could sound nice I suppose.

[JoeM]

isaac,

I have a tweed bassman 5F6A clone built in a tweed bandmaster cabinet with 3 weber sig 10s. It sounds great with this setup. A few weeks back I fixed a Twin Reverb RI, and just for fun plugged in my amp to the 2 12s in the Twin. Sounded completely different, much louder, but lost some of the "Tweediness". So mainly I think at least get the cab and try that. Post a schem if you can. The SS rectifier might be another issue.

[isaac]

I don't know about the rectifier, it would also take some doing to convert back, as I didn't just use a octal socket with a plug, its just a tag strip with two diodes on it. Anyway, yea, I need a good tweed-style cab for sure, but yea, it is really warm and thick, yet really deep, and it needs some more woody tone if you get what I mean. My father has a '55 deluxe (sadly the cab and speaker arent '55, they are about '02 RI) but that sounds great, and it gets that really nice woody tweed tone. I really should replace some of the coupling caps though, as it farts out... Anyway, that's the deal, it doesn't quite have that tweed as I call it "woodiness" so I was wondering on that. If you watch the Jim Weider How to get that Fender tone, The parts I'm thinking of are, his '52 tele through the super, and the '55 tele through the bassman. Those tones are to die for. I need to try the bandmaster through a 2x10 I have... I'll have to try it through other stuff too, but that will be a definite good first try for now.

On another note, How does the bassman sound through the 3x10's. is it like you'd think, cross between bassman and bandmaster?

[isaac]

The schematic is exactly like a tweed bandmaster, except no choke, just a resistor, solidstate rect, two in4007s, and the OT center tap goes to the first filter cap before the choke (resistor) instead of after it.
Other wise the same. I used 36W marshall trannys, which get me to the correct spec, so those are fine, and a 18W marshall chassis. Which I had to slightly edit for octal tubes, but with a milling machine, who cares.

[isaac]

I'm just about to start building a JTM45, (I'll have the 6l6's and stuff though, so basically a bassman) and I'll have a nice comparison there. As stated previously, I LOVE the tone of Jim Weider in how to get that fender tone, with the bassman, but still the super tone is killer. ;-)

[JoeM]

....
On another note, How does the bassman sound through the 3x10's. is it like you'd think, cross between bassman and bandmaster?

It sounds more like a bassman, but definitely has the Tweed character. I was surprised how different it sounded going into the Twin's speakers. I suspect the floating baffle on the tweed amps also contributes to the tweed sound.

[JoeM]

The schematic is exactly like a tweed bandmaster, except no choke, just a resistor, solidstate rect, two in4007s, and the OT center tap goes to the first filter cap before the choke (resistor) instead of after it.
Other wise the same. I used 36W marshall trannys, which get me to the correct spec, so those are fine, and a 18W marshall chassis. Which I had to slightly edit for octal tubes, but with a milling machine, who cares.

2 1N4007s on each leg?

[isaac]

What exactly is a "floating baffle"? .... Just looked it up. I personally would think of it this way... If the cabinets are made from the same wood, and same construction, same size, everything except one is floating and one is glued, my thought is that it would be hard to tell, but it also does make sense that screwed on versus glued on, that the glued on wouldn't vibrate quite as much, so as to sound a little less resonant, my $.2, I suspect I actually covered it well, what do you think?

[JoeM]

"Floating" is probably not the correct description. If you look at how Tweed amp baffles are mounted, there's just 2 screws at the top and bottom holding it to the cab. The sides of the baffle are not directly attached. The baffle itself I believe is thinner on the Tweeds too. You can tap the baffle and it 'thumps'. (That might not make sense!) But my point is the baffle itself contributes to the sound, compared to a very stiff baffle that does not resonate.

[Leo_Gnardo]

Just shows to go ya, when you change something, you change something. And usually there's an audible difference. No harm in altering anything esp. speaker choice to suit your ears. Also, do expect an audible change when you don't hew to the original formula.

I've heard Jim Weider's playing up close & in person more than a few times. He is a master of the Fender tone, and that should be obvious on his recordings. Most obviously right from the first notes of his first solo album Big Foot. "THIS IS FENDER - ALL HAIL!" He's also been lucky enough to score those 50's Tele's and patient enough to try out all sorts of permutations & combinations of circuitry and speakers. I remember telling him @ 20 years ago to try different values of "brightening" caps to suit his ear. Maybe he settled on the original item. Jim also has a secret weapon - luthier Dominic Ramos in Catskill NY. Dom's very busy, constantly overloaded, and consequently can't answer the phone or respond to all the inquiries & demands people make on him. Considering the excellent quality of his work I can't say I blame him. Besides being a super talent with wood, Dom creates pickups & repairs & mods them too, and is an inveterate experimenter & master of finishes. I got to examine one of his 7 string Charlie Christian's and it's a work of art. If you can get him to work on your axe, consider yourself blessed. I hope he won't think the worse of me for mentioning him.

[isaac]

That's kinda what I was getting at, I think... But yea. I see your point, I'm sure that helps a lot, it's a sturdy, and reliable design, but it works. It's not like the chipboard baffles of some later amps where they just fall apart, although they move a little more so they sound ok anyway. Oh well, I still think the cab shape, and what kind of speakers is slightly more important in this regard, but once you have that general stuff, you go for the more specific stuff like baffle design and such things.

[JoeM]

I remember reading an interview with the one of the Fender engineers back when they first did the Bassman RI. He had stated when they tried a stiffer baffle, the amp sounded more like a Super Reverb.

[isaac]

Oh haha, That's pretty good, So how did they do the baffle in the end, the standard floating one?

[JoeM]

Yes, just like the original. Keep in mind, this is just one contributing factor.

[isaac]

You'd think that they would want to do it floating from the start just because it is like the original.