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interesting output power measurements for a JTM100 clone

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  • interesting output power measurements for a JTM100 clone

    A good customer came in on saturday afternoon with his JTM100 clone after one of his KT66s had evacuated and took out his HT fuse. He already had a new quad of TAD KT88s with him, and as long as the tube was the only cassualty and didn't cause any damage to anything else after it failed, I figured I could probably do a quick tube swap, bias, bench test, and cleaning and turn it around while he waited for it. So, I put the head up on my bench and removed the chassis so I could inspect it for any damage and replace the internal HT fuse. Screen resistors were all okay; Also everything else in the power supply looked normal while I used my variac to gradually increase the mains voltage across the primary and bring it up full power.

    ****I do want to pause here and make the point of how important it is to use a quality moving vain current meter in conjunction with variac. Why an alaloge meter, and not a highly and much more accurate digital display meter? Because, it order to protect the device under test during critical stages of the repair, I'm not looking for a precision measuremennt, I'm looking for a problem, and an analog moving vain meter will indicate a problem, and do it very quickly,
    For our purposes, the response time is nearly instantaneous, and by observing movent and position of the needle, we deduce the severity of the problem and it can often provide clues on the nature of the trouble.

    now, back to this repair:... after all the tubes were installed, biased, and tested under load, the subject of power output came up and I told him we could determine the output power of his amp with his new quad of tubes very quickly. So I ran a 1k sine wave into the amp, and used the scope to observe the waveform and measure the RMS voltage at the speaker output. I loaded the output with 8Ω, and brought the signal at the output to point where the peaks of the waveform began to just to point just before they began to flatten out, and observed an a measurement of 24.5VRMS, so I did the calculation out loud saying "24.3^2/8 = 75..... so it's 75W into 8Ω, and he paused for a second or two and asked "did you just say 8Ω? the seletor switch is in the 16Ω position." So I looked around the back and double checked and he was correct. I had misread the position of the switch, turned the switch to the 8Ω position, and re-measured the loltage (there are only settings for 8Ω and 16Ω in this model. They use a output ransformer part number 1202-84)
    The weird thing was that when matching the 8Ω load secondary labele 8Ω, I measured around 20VRMS, droping the output power from 75W to 50W. When running the 16Ω output setting into a 16Ω load, I calculated 50W of output power using that setting as well.

    What do you guys make of this. There was no noticable difference in waveform distortion, or indication of output tube stress or runaway when testing with the load and output lables matched or not.
    If I have a 50% chance of guessing the right answer, I guess wrong 80% of the time.

  • #2
    Mismatched output impedance (resistance in this case) doesnt mean much at 1kHZ.
    I would expect a similar reading from most valve amplifiers.
    At 100HZ, that will be different but either way, pretty meaningless.
    50W RMS with a pure sine wave is about right as the transformer can onlt induce so much power. More iron and that would give more efficiency so I would expect more power output.
    KT88s have a different load impedance than KT66s and of course EL34s.

    Many variables at play here.
    Support for Fender, Laney, Marshall, Mesa, VOX and many more. https://jonsnell.co.uk
    If you can't fix it, I probably can.

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    • #3
      For reasons unknown (other than that they sound great!), Marshall used a shallow load line, below the KT66 knee, in their KT66 amps, eg about 8k anode - anode, when 4 to 5k would be a through the knee loadline.
      ie the amps will tend to make a higher power output if the load impedance is reduced.
      If 8k (2k in the class B area) is below the knee for KT66, it seems likely to be even further below for KT88.

      So yeah, your results with a 4k compared to 8k per KT88 pair anode to anode load per seem to be expected.

      Try online loadline plotters if you'd like to investigate this further
      http://bmamps.com/ivds.html
      https://www.vtadiy.com/loadline-calc...ne-calculator/
      My band:- http://www.youtube.com/user/RedwingBand

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      • #4
        ^^^^ That!
        I couldn't agree more .

        The original JTM100 Drake 1202-84 OT had an Raa of 4k, so each tube sees a load of 2k in class B.

        http://forum.metropoulos.net/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=6599
        Last edited by Helmholtz; 11-14-2024, 02:35 PM.
        - Own Opinions Only -

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        • #5
          Very cool info, thanks!

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          • #6
            Is this a 50 or 100w amp?
            You said JTM100 clone, with a quad of KT88's, unless you only used two.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Helmholtz View Post
              ^^^^ That!
              I couldn't agree more .

              The original JTM100 Drake 1202-84 OT had an Raa of 4k, so each tube sees a load of 2k in class B.

              http://forum.metropoulos.net/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=6599
              With Ra-a of 4k, shouldn't the class B loadline be 1k?
              My band:- http://www.youtube.com/user/RedwingBand

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              • #8
                Originally posted by pdf64 View Post

                With Ra-a of 4k, shouldn't the class B loadline be 1k?
                No, not with 4 tubes.
                - Own Opinions Only -

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Helmholtz View Post

                  No, not with 4 tubes.
                  I don't understand what difference that makes, is it explained anywhere?
                  My band:- http://www.youtube.com/user/RedwingBand

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by pdf64 View Post
                    I don't understand what difference that makes, is it explained anywhere?
                    The 100W/4k OT provides a 1k load at each side of the primary.
                    As this 1k load is shared by 2 tubes in parallel, each of the tubes sees twice the resistance, i.e. 2k.

                    The Raa of a 100W OT is typically half the value of the 50W type, so the tubes are seeing the same load in both cases.

                    - Own Opinions Only -

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                    • #11
                      Ah, 2k per anode, of course, thanks!
                      My band:- http://www.youtube.com/user/RedwingBand

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                      • #12
                        Yes, thank you all for the responses. I'm familiar with KT88s being used with a larger p-p load impedance than you see with other output tubes having similar power specs. I've actually been plotting some KT66 load lines operating under the voltages I was reading while testing the amp.
                        even with a 4k load (2xKT88 per side of the OT), I do not like what I'm seeing. Unfortunately, adjusting the grid bias and idle current draw, or significantly lowering the screen voltage doesn't seem to mitigate the problem. It appears that the tubes exceed their dissipation rating for about 33% of their conduction cycle (about half of the time while operating in class B). If looks like if either the load Z is increased to about 5k, or the B+ is brought down to around +475/480V, it looks a lot better. I've seen a fair number of Marshalls from around this era come through, with many of them use power supplies with a B+ in the high +300V (maybe around +390V?). By the way, I've found these versions to sound fantastic and subjectively loud. Since this is a clone, I'm wondering if the original JTM100's with KT66's used these?​
                        Am I being too conservative? Is this normal in these designs?
                        If I have a 50% chance of guessing the right answer, I guess wrong 80% of the time.

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                        • #13
                          The PD limit in class B can be exceeded by up to a factor of maybe 2 for part of the loadline.
                          Reason is that each tube only conducts for a half-cycle and can cool down during the other one. So average PD is halved.

                          Yes, original JTM 100s used 4xKT66s with a 4k OT.
                          The real problem with a loadline that far below the knee is excessive screen dissipation.

                          What B+ and screen voltage (at socket pins) do you measure at full clean output?
                          Last edited by Helmholtz; 11-16-2024, 12:32 AM.
                          - Own Opinions Only -

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                          • #14
                            Not speaking fixed numbers for the very good reason I donīt know which OT was actually used here (hint: "clone") but ratios.

                            Measured
                            power: higher power (75W) with lowered PP impedance (8 ohm load into 16 ohm tap) while.this amp shows 50W with nominally matched impedance, be it 8 ohm load into 8 ohm tap or 16 ohm load into 16 ohm tap, so whatever it is, itīs the right one.

                            FWIW I never expect 100 clean watts out of a 100W tube amp.
                            Juan Manuel Fahey

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                            • #15
                              No worries, this is how the class B work. The 'exceeding power' is for half of cycle like Helm saidI.ll be more worried about max dissipation into screen grids. Dime the amp and measure the current over the screens stoppers you have. If max power rating is severe exceeded adjust the screen stoppers at a value to drop enough voltage as well in respect with screen current draw to not exceed the max screen dissipation value too much. I.ll say if you supply sag to say 350V dimed yo.ll be safe even with some like 470 ohm or so... but is just a supposition is a matter of OT you used.
                              ...or put a shunt Zener to keep safe the voltage into the screens...not quite what Marshall did...

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                              Last edited by catalin gramada; 11-16-2024, 03:26 PM.
                              "If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad. If it measures bad and sounds good, you are measuring the wrong things."

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