bugera 333xl schemaics ????

[wyomingrocks]

Why would a company not offer schematics for there products, to me that product becomes useless at that point. I bought a bugera 333xl in july and it had a problem, they ended up sending me a new amp back. Great customer service all the way through by the way. But I would like to get a schematic for it, I have checked every where online and can't find one. I contacted the company and they won't release them. I don't understand why? Some company's like traynor have a schematic link right on there site. I have a brand new one never opened I guess I will eventually put it on ebay. That is to bad for me because sound wise it is one of my favorites.

[trevorus]

They don't want other non-autorized people working on their stuff. Not that uncommon. Sorry man.

[Danglin' Fury]

What REALLY sucks about Bugera is it is a spin-off of Behringer. I have taked to Behringer dealers and they have told me that when people bring their amps in to get serviced, their corporate office tells them to throw them in the trash. A certified amp shop here in Tulsa has told me they can't even get a schematic for ANYTHING Behringer or Bugera. Really lame if you ask me. If you start comparing the Bugera amps with certain Peavey amps,(333=XXX, 333xl= JSX, 6262= 6505, etc...) you will start to see a little reverse engineering going on.

[Enzo]

I'd say their amps are designed to remind you of those PV models, but inside they are not all that much of a copy.

Only Behringer authorized repair station are allowed access to the schematics. We all have to sign a non-disclosure agreeement, so we cannot distribute them. Your pal in Tulsa must not be a Behringer authorized repair facility then. it isn;t a matter of how good a tech you are, it is a matter of having the business relationship with the company or not. For example Fender doesn;t sell to anyone but their dealers.

Each manufacturer has his own policy about documents. There are a couple issues. One is copyright/patent infringement. I mean this is a tube amp, and not many electronic things are simpler than tube amps. ANy technician can sit down and draw out the schematic if he has the unit in hand. But part of defending your product is limiting access to the particulars. Yes, everyone knows all you have to do is walk in a store and buy one and trace out the circuit, but they don;t make it easy for you to do so.

SOmeone like Peavey is very free with schematics, but they never went through a huge patent infringement suit with Mackie like Behringer did. Behringer lost big time. They tend to be a bit snake bit.

ANother concern is liability. If I hand you a schematic, I am giving you tacit approval to work inside the unit. Little Johnny electrocutes himself working on his amp, then mom and dad are suing ME.

A factory provides a service network, so your product can be serviced when needed. or they have an exchange program. SO they have covered your need for a schematic.

I neither agree or disagree with this sort of policy, it is simply a fact of life in the business.

[wyomingrocks]

thanks

I sort of know where they are coming from, but me as a consumer. It just plain sucks. Out of all the marshalls and mesa's and other amps I have owned for what ever reason the bugera just plays in the top 10% for me. I can look at it and tell it is cheaply constructed. I had one die the first day and another die about after 3 months. They ended up replacing both with very little hassle, but this next year my warrantee runs out. So that goes out the window. If I keep it I guess I will end up tracing it out like you comment on. I guess there wouldn't be nothing illegal for me to post a hand drawn schematic somewhere without my signature? I wasn't aware of there big law suit. I will probably sometime down the road try out a used jsx, which is supposed to be very simular but with peavey quality. At 550.00 or what ever it was new, I can make a pretty good dent in another new one with shippng and all if I had to send it of and get it serviced. As they say, it suck to be you. But in this case it sucks to be me. I won't cry over it though there are plenty of amps, that never changes. I owned the JVM for about 6 months before they released the schematic. If I wait long enough some where some time, some one will leak out. Anyway I just thought I would ask. As always thanks for your input.

[Enzo]

You haven't mentioned the nature of the problems the amp had. I personally don't think most tube amp repairs are much of a challenge, since most are just broken parts or tube failures. We can always find screen resistors or output transformers without schematics.

[wyomingrocks]

sorry Enzo

The first one I had just quit working after I brought it home. The external fuse was good. It died while it was in stand by. No sound, it seems like the front panel light still lit and the tubes lost power (something to that effect). I returned it and they gave me a new one.

The second one died, there is a picture around here that is almost exactly like my problem. The connector coming off the transformer shorted out. The tech I sent it to, changed connectors and he said he still didn't like the sound of it. He ordered a replacement board, it did not come in for two to three weeks, I called him and he said he would check on it. A couple days later UPS delivered what I believe to be a brand new one to my door.
I still haven't even opened it. It was sent straight from the manufacturer.
In the mean time I bought the TSL's and have been playing them for the past two to three months.

I can tell you one thing, poking my nose in that bugera and comparing it to the tsl is like comparing grade school to college. Since I am not an amp tech by trade, it takes me longer to get my bearings inside an amp. I guess like anything the more you do something the easier it becomes. I remember when I first started out being a tech, I would look at what seemed to be a confusing bunch of parts connected together but they became easier and easier as the years went by and eventually I didn't have to reach for my schematics all the time, I could just check key places and solve my problem more efficiently. I am still far from that with amps because I have only worked on 5-6 of them. But I have learned a ton on this forum thanks to you Enzo and many good folks out there who donate there time to help out amp owners like myself. I would imagine if I sat down for an 8 hour day I could probably trace out most of the bugera and it would be a keeper for me, like I say I really like the tone alot. I may end up keeping it, it just seems like it is not a matter of if, but when it will go down on me. Out of the 10 years I was a tech I never did find a problem I couldn't fix, but for someone not that familiar with amp circuitry I have to wonder if it is more trouble than it is worth.

[Blackzar84]

The first one I had just quit working after I brought it home. The external fuse was good. It died while it was in stand by. No sound, it seems like the front panel light still lit and the tubes lost power (something to that effect). I returned it and they gave me a new one.

The second one died, there is a picture around here that is almost exactly like my problem. The connector coming off the transformer shorted out. The tech I sent it to, changed connectors and he said he still didn't like the sound of it. He ordered a replacement board, it did not come in for two to three weeks, I called him and he said he would check on it. A couple days later UPS delivered what I believe to be a brand new one to my door.
I still haven't even opened it. It was sent straight from the manufacturer.
In the mean time I bought the TSL's and have been playing them for the past two to three months.

I can tell you one thing, poking my nose in that bugera and comparing it to the tsl is like comparing grade school to college. Since I am not an amp tech by trade, it takes me longer to get my bearings inside an amp. I guess like anything the more you do something the easier it becomes. I remember when I first started out being a tech, I would look at what seemed to be a confusing bunch of parts connected together but they became easier and easier as the years went by and eventually I didn't have to reach for my schematics all the time, I could just check key places and solve my problem more efficiently. I am still far from that with amps because I have only worked on 5-6 of them. But I have learned a ton on this forum thanks to you Enzo and many good folks out there who donate there time to help out amp owners like myself. I would imagine if I sat down for an 8 hour day I could probably trace out most of the bugera and it would be a keeper for me, like I say I really like the tone alot. I may end up keeping it, it just seems like it is not a matter of if, but when it will go down on me. Out of the 10 years I was a tech I never did find a problem I couldn't fix, but for someone not that familiar with amp circuitry I have to wonder if it is more trouble than it is worth.

This Monday, i just bought a brand new Bugera V55HD from my favourite local shop. I tried it for a few minutes in the shop, it sounded kinda weird, "kinda ossidating pots sound" comin outta the cab, than it stopped as the amp warmed up while i was playing, and it was fine to me, i just thought it was just the valves warming up.
I carried it at home, and start to playin it, in triode mode at less than half volume, 16ohm cab correctly matched. I played it for 3 quarters of an hour, than i turned it off. After half of an hour i decided to play it a little more, cos i liked it so much, and there was the BIG FUCKING surprise.
As done before, stand by for few minutes and than i switched it on, and no sound was comin out of it...all volumes up and no sound, than i just turned up the clean a little more and than a LOUD LOUD noise came outta the amp, and the only way to stop it was turning off the amp, and so i did.

I just carried it back to the shop and sent to the authorized tech service. I'm pretty pissed off about this, i just don't get why they sell these amps if they break up so easily...and i'm seriously thinkin about not keepin it, even after th reparation, cos i read that they are cheap, and i already knew that, i just didn't think they were SO cheap...
Bad thing is that i'm not an amp technician at all, so i don't know how the hell to fix it. Warraty lasts for a year, and after that??? What if it breaks up again???

[Prairie Dawg]

Ultimately what happens is it's a restraint on the free exchange of information and it's a non sustainable policy in this day and age where people conclude-rightly enough-that they're entitled to it because they're stuck with a non functional consumer product.

Sooner or later the information comes out in bits and pieces. Nobody's immune from it, and the end result of it is that the folks selling these amps create an enormous amount of resentment. That resentment becomes public knowledge, and it tends to drive people away. Why? They're not the only game in town. Not now.

I ran into a similar situation here in town when I foolishly thought I could go to the local agency, order, pay for and get a power supply for the wife's defunct Tivo. Eff you, Traviss Audio Video. I'm not shopping with you.

At this point the only thing Bugera has going for it is price. Just having finished servicing a Bugera 1990 and forming an opinion of the build standard, I'm inclined to try and find one that's busted and build something interesting inside that vast empty hangar of a chassis.

I can say that in view of this policy, I'm not going to recommend that anyone purchase a Bugera, unless the purpose is cannibalization as I describe above.

[Enzo]

I understand the irritation, but "free exchange of information?" The company is under no obligation to publish schematics. No one is stopping anyone from spreading the schematics that do leak out. What do you do when the warranty expires? The service center network is still there. That is how Behringer supports its products. What would it cost to get the schematic of the control system in a new car?

[Prairie Dawg]

I understand the irritation, but "free exchange of information?" The company is under no obligation to publish schematics. No one is stopping anyone from spreading the schematics that do leak out. What do you do when the warranty expires? The service center network is still there. That is how Behringer supports its products. What would it cost to get the schematic of the control system in a new car?

I guess in a way you're right. Selling something at or below cost to capture the after sale service is nothing new, but a lot of electronic service people are unaffiliated-and they're often the people that owners prefer to patronize because they're local and treat people with respect. Like me.

This was true back when every small town had a radio and television repair shop-but for the most part the people who made those products published the technical information necessary to service their products because they recognized that a person who can get their products repaired and not miss Million Dollar Movie is a happy person who'll likely buy from the manufacturer again and say nice things about them to their friends.

As far as my observation about the free exchange of information, that's something relatively new in my lifetime but it seems to be what people expect these days-witness file sharing, napster, grokster, pirate bay, wikileaks, bootleg software, bootleg DVDs and the rest-as soon as one is shut down ten more spring up, and people for the most part vote with their mouse clicks.

The whole idea seems decoupled from whether the people trying to control technical information or protect their IP like it or not, and it is also decoupled from any fear of legal consequences. It also raises ethical questions in the places where things are taught.

It used to be that reverse engineering complex metal parts like turbine blades was difficult and maybe more work than starting with a clean sheet of paper but nowadays with scanner technology and CAD/CAM anyone can turn the stuff out.

Not saying that it's right or wrong, it's the nature of the beast.

Behringer may be under no obligation to publish technical information but it almost insures that they're not interested in repeat customers or developing anything approaching brand loyalty. If you treat people shabbily they don't return for second helpings.

I'm no genius but I spent enough time working for myself and for other people in a number of different occupations to figure that out. Effective field service is the only game in town for owner loyalty, even if you don't capture every possible dollar.

The Loud people seem to have split the baby nicely down the middle-they'll provide technical information to legitimate owners of their products who can provide them with a serial number.

Of course, this is something about which reasonable minds may, and often do, differ.

I do thank you for all the help and information you provide. I've benefited from it greatly.

[trevorus]

One thing I like to do to an amp like this is put a new circuit in the amp, if the power and output transformers can handle it. Why not take this Bugera and turn it into an old school Marshall or something of the sort?

[Prairie Dawg]

If it was mine that's exactly what I'd do-plenty of room, good iron, steel chassis...I'd buy a used one for that purpose any day.

[Enzo]

Well, if that is what you want to do, why pay money for a new Bugera? Or anything else? get an old dead chassis and build something. I hope it turns out like you want it to.

I can't hand out the schematics, but if I see them online, I'll sure share the links, I have no vested interest in their secrecy. I only have my agreement signed stating my treatment of their files.

PD I have to disagree with your analysis in several areas.

I guess in a way you're right. Selling something at or below cost to capture the after sale service is nothing new, but a lot of electronic service people are unaffiliated-and they're often the people that owners prefer to patronize because they're local and treat people with respect. Like me.

Nah. Behringer is not catching after sale service, shops like mine are. Behr sure doesn't make these amps just so I can fix them for people after the warranty ends. The only way you make money selling below cost for service later is something that will require ongoing service. Like a water softener. I sell you a $400 softener for $200, knowing you will need a $40 salt call every month the rest of your life. We don;t have that ongoing thing here. And there is a loss leader, sell something below cost tp lead them into your store, where they are likely to purchase additional goods. Again, that doesnl;t describe this.

As far as my observation about the free exchange of information, that's something relatively new in my lifetime but it seems to be what people expect these days-witness file sharing, napster, grokster, pirate bay, wikileaks, bootleg software, bootleg DVDs and the rest-as soon as one is shut down ten more spring up, and people for the most part vote with their mouse clicks.

True, times have changed. As soon as you publish anything the forces of rip-off will steal it and spread it around behind your back. We also now mostly all lock our homes and cars, we buy cars with trunks instead of hatch backs so we can keep possessions out of sight, we have a growing interest in walking around armed, "just in case." We don;t leave the wheels on the bikes we park in the rack, if we even leave them outside at all.

Behringer may be under no obligation to publish technical information but it almost insures that they're not interested in repeat customers or developing anything approaching brand loyalty. If you treat people shabbily they don't return for second helpings.

And I really disagree here. Last time I priced it, the manual for my small pickup truck cost $75 from Ford, and that was 10 years ago or more. I bet my Toyota manual costs less, but won;t be cheap. I like to have schematics on my vehicles, but not at $75. Ask a bunch of guys what is important to them looking at guitar amps. WIthout putting the idea in their heads, how many of them will say "having the schematics freely distributed"? In other words ask them what they think is important, don;t ask is having schematics important. No one is going to say schematics is a deal breaker.

The vast majority of people when looking at a schematic have no idea what they are seing. Might as well be a map of the Bangkok subway system. You want loyal customers, you sell a product that sounds good enough to buy and an amp that works well enough once you get it home. And yes, some way to get it fixed if it breaks. To an independent shop, schematics may well be important, but I sure have fixed a lot without them. I have a mutlithousand dollar Bogner in here with switching circuit issues, and they REALLY don;t want to send me a schematic. Line 6 would be out of business by lunch time if schematics were a must have. And Nady.

Don't get me wrong, I love companies like PV who fall all over themselves trying to help their customers, but it is not the only approach,.

[Prairie Dawg]

Then I'm at a loss to figure out what their business model is. Unhappy customers are the very legerdemain, or so I was led to believe.

I'm pretty old fashioned when it comes right down to it-I like after sale product support, and I do not think there's any downside to it.

Another thing that occurred to me last night is that Behringer had their teat in a wringer over reverse engineered products a while ago and maybe they're a little gunshy because of it and operating in the clear light of day isn't part of their corporate DNA.

Back in the day when I worked down the road from you in K'zoo I spent two plus days trying to decipher a particular problem with a Metroliner that we had under repair. At the time, the person who was responsible for the work had left the company abruptly and I got thrown into the middle of it with orders to figure out and fix what was wrong.

I opined to John Ellis that depending on a system of key people and vertical silos of information was counterproductive, if and when the key people-for which substitute key information-disappear or is/are not available.

Reverse engineering is nothing new, either. maybe a more sophisticated approach to the whole subject is required. I always thought that Dumble missed the boat-he should not have sold his amps but merely sold licenses for people to use them. In the aircraft business it was called "power by the hour". Once you actually buy something, it's yours to do with what you will which was how reverse engineering gave rise to a small cottage industry manufacturing Dumble clones.